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Our Cold War. Mixers VS. Fighters. - NOT OFFICIAL


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Poll: Unofficial Poll Mix vs Combat (88 member(s) have cast votes)

Should being able to craft the highest end items have some negative impact on combat strength and should being tweaked for maximum combat strength mean you cannot craft high end items?

  1. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  2. I don't know (4 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  3. NO (68 votes [77.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.27%

Should the degree of negative impact on combat strength increase with the amount of mixing skills you are able to perform at their maximum?

  1. No (15 votes [17.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.05%

  2. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  3. I voted No on the first question (54 votes [61.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.36%

  4. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

As a broad and general question; How much decrease to combat strength should be felt for having mixing ability?

  1. Only a little (9 votes [10.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.23%

  2. A moderate amount (7 votes [7.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.95%

  3. Quite a lot (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

  4. I voted No to the first question (66 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  5. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

Vote

#1 Korrode

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:00 AM

For the purpose of this thread, the term "fighter" is being used as a synonym for any type of combatant (melee, mage, ranger, summoner, etc.).

This thread is to engage in conceptual discussion about if forced game mechanics should make a "pr0 mixer", if forced mechanics should make a "pr0 fighter", if such mechanics should exist at all, and if so to what degree.

I am going to pay for a poll for this thread, but it's not a poll for any specific game feature, it's to gauge the type of system the majority wants before discussing and voting on specific game features.

An example set of poll questions:

Should being able to craft the highest end items have some negative impact on combat strength and should being tweaked for maximum combat strength mean you cannot craft high end items?
( ) Yes. A maximum strength fighter should have minimal mixing ability and being able to mix high-end items should decrease combat strength.
( ) No. We should be able to craft everything and retain maximum combat strength.

Should the degree of negative impact on combat strength increase with the amount of mixing skills you are able to perform at their maximum? (i.e. Being able to only do Manufacturing at it's maximum would cause a small decrease in combat strength, but being able to do Manu, Crafting, Potioning and Tailoring at their maximums would cause a larger decrease in combat strength)
( ) No. There should be a flat decrease no matter how many mixing skills are pursued.
( ) Yes. The more mixing skills one can perform at their maximum, the bigger combat handicap they should have.
( ) I voted No to the first question.

As a broad and general question; How much decrease to combat strength should be felt for having mixing ability?
( ) Only a little
( ) A moderate amount
( ) Quite a lot
( ) I voted No to the first question.


Before starting your post to discuss this, I urge everyone to have a really hard think about it. Try to consider things from as many angles as possible and to try to consider both immediate and long-term ramifications of your position, for both yourself and for other types of players.

* NOT AN OFFICIAL POLL *

Edited by Learner, 07 October 2012 - 02:37 PM.
* NOT AN OFFICIAL POLL *


#2 Wizzy

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 03:49 AM

1 Y
2 Y
3 1

I think there should be a small pentely for pursing the "mixing arts"  However I don't think it should cripple you from fighting either. I think it is reasonable for a "fighter" to have 1 mixing skill for income and game diversity and still be a strong fighter.

#3 themuntdregger

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:18 AM

Great topic Korrode, interesting and well though out.

1 Y
2 Y
3 3

I agree the game should allow for chars all rounders up to a certain point, but also uber specialisation. The fact that some chars can do stuff others can't, or at least do it a lot better, is something that I feel is fundamental to creating a balanced economy, ie where char diversification provides a basis for players to want and need to trade with each other.

At the end of the day, char development needs to be about player choice. If someone wants to give up all mix/harv skills to be a better fighter, then it should be their choice (and vice versa for those who want to be better mixers). There's still the opportunity for them to choose to retain a little of either skillset, or be a complete allrounder.

If  you force chars to always have a certain level of residual mixing/combat skills, you are in fact taking choice away from players, not giving them more. Imho, that's a backward step.

#4 mistral

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:36 AM

1 NO
2. 3rd option
3. 4rth option

With a cap at 100s it will be difficult for someone who wants to enjoy the game in "all its glory" .

PS : If this game is gonna be same as EL, we are waisting our time here

#5 Salt

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:15 AM

( ) No
( ) I voted No to the first question
( ) I voted No to the first question

Now this is really going to go off on a tangent at some point so brace yourselves xD...

I felt in EL (ignoring effects of pp buying so its more relevant to OL) that people had to make a choice, to become a fighter, or to become a mixer. Its rare to choose both and succeed because of all the nexus's required(and time!) for those mixing skills. So once person X chose to become a mixer, competitive pk was pretty much out of consideration. This leads to huge imbalances and large populations of the game unwilling to pk because they simply couldn't compete (unless they used some serious OP EL items/skills). It's not even all about pk. In PVE I could always remember those mixers that simply didn't attend invasions/instances/invances, or if they did attend, died a lot or were obviously 'weak' compared to their pure breed counterparts, and i didn't envy them one bit, their life is/was such a struggle...Now some may prefer such game design...I don't.

Wacky off tangent part: What if we had something different, We had a beginner map, and some subsequent maps with monsters on for training. The first part of the game (OL?) would be to level to some decent a/d and we'd all earn attributes which we would spend. Then at some point we'd reach the part where we want to stop training a/d (near soft cap). We'd all have roughtly same amount of attribute pp's spent on a/d skill. At this point end game content in terms of mixing skills opened up fully. We would have gained mixer-pick-points (different from attribute pp's used for fighters) from our oa's earned from the aforementioned training. That way, we'd all be high level fighters eventually with same~ amount of pp's in our fighter skills (perfect for fair pk?) and if we wanted to, during our training from 0 to 100 a/d, we could have been unlocking mixing skills and starting those.
Now there may be concerns about everyone being able to mix.
[1]Well not everyone likes to mix and may not use their mixer-pick-points at all
[2]You could limit mixer-pick-points so that you could choose 2-3 out of the 8 mixers skills at most
[3]You could also reserve some of the resources for end-game-content mixing skills for exclusively pk areas (if we are all balanced fighters this should be fine? - but ill understand if many don't like this one)...


tr;dr: the implementation is sketchy, and the above is just one of the many ideas you could maybe do it with, but the concept was the important part. Faulting someone in fight-skills because they like to mix is just the start of excluding groups of players from good balanced fighting content(and maybe even excluding them from balanced mixer content).

Notes:
(a)Now even if the OL system becomes *nothing* like that, and people are penalized for being mixer, I'd probably just specialize in being a mixer or fighter. Like I did in EL.

(b)Imagine in EL, a fighter wants maxed attributes, but to give it to him would be to OP? Now whats the equivalent for mixers? ....Imagine if we gave someone the ability to blacksmith the finest armors, to be the most skilled crafter of delicate items, to be able to engineer the most complex of contraptions, and in their spare time, go down to the local runway to showoff their latest Dolce and Gabana designs made by their tailoring skills. Is this not OP for the mixing world? Remember the line between what we want, and what is reasonable. A mixer with all skills, is that not OP?


TOTALLY RANDOM IDEA THAT I HAD:
Problem: In EL, if we had to mix/harvest in pk area, our inventory was either full of harvest stuff, or totally empty because we needed maxed space for the harvestable.EL encouraged weak people/builds to run around in pk areas just waiting to be assassinated. And when they lost their precious exec cape or item XYZ it's kinda :(
(lets ignore any chance that the person has body guards(people or 1k summoning stones or dis rings) and didn't use these in defense)

Solution: Separate EMU in our INV's. From our attributes, work out a carry capacity for harvestables and a carry capacity for gears(whether that be a/d/magic/summ , whatever fight class you chose).

Effect?: Instead of the comments like..

Quote

Ooooo you attacked a naked harvester! Your mother clearly worked in the sex industry and your sexuality is questionable! FLAME FLAME FLAME!

we would hopefully give people better chance to defend themselves and give rise to a 'more likely' fair PK encounter?
We don't want to see naked harvesters in PK areas...let people be able to harvest a decent load, but also wear/carry the gear they need to defend themselves.

#6 Bat17

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:00 AM

Those naked harvesters were probably only in there because they were doing a daily!
I don't think that any ings should only be available on pk maps.
I am a harvester mixer, I pve like a hunter gatherer, kill what I need for my skill + some leveling up to let me enter locations that have raw mats safely.
So to me things like GWIS and Lenny just detract from the game, I we are going to have random events in the game that are really just to the disadvantage of non fighters then we should have matching random events that hit fighters, how about lightning strikes in the game, the more meatal carried the more likely to be hit and killed?  :-)

Bat17

#7 Hades

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:22 AM

1. YES
2. YES
3. 2

I don't think you should get a huge disadvantage for taking on a mixing skill alongside your combat one, but doing it all without repercussions is out of the question. People say that the main disadvantage of an allrounder is TIME; that is not the case anymore with this exp gain system, where one can get level 40-50 in 6-7 skills in about a month.

I don't think mixers should feel handicapped in PvP or PvE. I'd even consider certain BONUSES be given to mixers, depending on what skill they mix, bonuses that would help them in fighting as well. For example, a manufacturer could get a small damage/armor bonus when wearing armors, because he is very accostumed to armors/weapons; a potioner could get a small hp/mana boost, and so on. With these bonuses, even fighters would consider choosing a mixing skill to level, if the disadvantage wouldn't affect their combat skill too much. Of course, the disadvantage has to grow with each mixing skill pursued, we can't be the best at everything. An all-rounder is a person who has decent knowledge and decent levels in all skills, not a person who is the best at everything they do.

Also, the mentality that people will get bored once they reach the cap is wrong. If a lot of mid-game as well as end-game content is added to the game, to keep you busy months and even years after hitting the cap, then nobody will get bored so fast.

#8 PandemiC

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:49 AM

1 (1)

2 (1)

3 (1)



Just from personal experience, just *using wow terms here* speccing into crafting I've already lost 12 pickpoints on nexus. Compared to the 3-4 that most 'fighters' would have, and I'm not even half way done with how many more nexus I will need. And this already impacts what I can train and how fast I can train and how much resources I use compared...

#9 Nova

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 10:00 AM

Here's my problem with penalising:  Most fighters just want to fight and don't care much about mixing so they won't really care much about any penalties attached to mixing.  Look at the neg perks in EL.  There are tons of people who take HoS and hellspawn because they don't care about the negatives of those perks because they just don't do the other stuff.

Most mixers/all arounders want to fight because they enjoy all the content of the game.  It's a disproportionate 'punishment' when you think about it like that.  Think of all arounders like geeks, they have more interests, therefore more knowledge, therefore they are good at lots of stuff.  I know people scoff at the idea that the time it takes to level any other skill besides a/d isn't penalty enough, but it really is a big one.  When you're working on potions, you can't train, when you're harving sapphs to make rings, you can't train, when you're doing 100 different things for the mixing skills, you can't train.

View PostSoD, on 07 October 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

I don't think mixers should feel handicapped in PvP or PvE. I'd even consider certain BONUSES be given to mixers, depending on what skill they mix, bonuses that would help them in fighting as well. For example, a manufacturer could get a small damage/armor bonus when wearing armors, because he is very accostumed to armors/weapons; a potioner could get a small hp/mana boost, and so on. With these bonuses, even fighters would consider choosing a mixing skill to level, if the disadvantage wouldn't affect their combat skill too much. Of course, the disadvantage has to grow with each mixing skill pursued, we can't be the best at everything. An all-rounder is a person who has decent knowledge and decent levels in all skills, not a person who is the best at everything they do.

Now this, I like.  It makes sense.
.

#10 Trojan_Knight

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:07 PM

I like this topic +1

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Mixed feelings on this one. One part of me wants to say Option 2, another wants to say other options. I guess my overall opinion would be determined by if we knew the details to an extent of what was clarified as X amount.

I've seen the idea of some people are great at many things tossed around a little bit. And I completely understand the debate. However, with the same concept of "some people great at many things." In simple terms, those same people may be great at science, animal clarification, the study of turtles, outter space, automobile mechanics, etc for example. Though there would be many things that do not interest them, that they are not great at, ie: history, how to fly a airplane, cooking mac & cheese and etc. Even though these are irl examples, and are a little extreme to some degree. I feel a game like this, should somewhat mimic those knowledge traits from irl. Irl we have some not so bright people, many regular people and a few number of genius's. To me, genius would be same a specialized cuz I choose to only do one skill. Average person would be same as someone that does a couple of skills for example.

:)

#11 Aislinn

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:27 PM

No
I voted no
I voted no

Simple: I picked EL many years ago because there were no classes and the characters were attractive options to choose from.  I looked at a lot of games before that and having to specialize from the get-go with an ugly character did not appeal to me at all.  While we all agree that there are problems in EL, it also has a lot of fine points that led us to choose it in the first place before we knew what the failings were.  Let's not lose sight of that.

Now having the experience to go with that, forcing us to go the specialized route will especially penalize anyone wanting to try combat that is normally a mixer of some sort.  It forces the exact problem I thought we were trying to eliminate in pvp: No way to ever catch up or be on a level playing field so why bother?  You won't ever get more people to participate in pk if you are penalizing players before they even start simply for choosing to mix too.  As Nova pointed out, fighters don't care if they are penalized for mixing or harvesting, they generally don't want to anyway.  Disproportionate penalty indeed and conflicts with the desired goal of enticing more people to a combat style of play.  You won't ever convince mixers to come fight at the expense of their mixing skills.

I think the time factor is a sufficient and reasonable penalty.

#12 elg3neral

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

View PostAislinn, on 07 October 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:



I think the time factor is a sufficient and reasonable penalty.

+1

#13 Hades

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 03:06 PM

Aislinn, you are repeating yourself, again and again. Do you ever read the replies to a topic before posting? Having absolutely NO penalty for leveling multiple skills would transform this game into a single player one. Is that what you want?
Time is not such an important factor anymore. Do you even play OL?

The new mixing exp gain system reduces the grind dramatically. If I wanted, with no PP penalty, I could level 5-6 skills up to level 50 in less than a month. Making my own armor/weapons, healing stuff, potions, etc. Some may say 'but then you will reduce your train time' SO what? There is a CAP, which I will reach sooner or later.

Very few people choose to buy the stuff instead of making it(even now many people are making their own minor heals because its cheaper). If there was no penalty whatsoever, mixers would just have to under-sell items, like they do on EL.

I can't believe the majority of people who DO NOT THINK, and just want what's best for them, not for the game overall.
Even with just level 20-30 in some skills, you can still make your own potions(Brs, SRs), armor(augs), essences(LEs, HEs,etc.). If we were to have no penalty for all rounders, then the economy would just be screwed. Fighters would buy stuff from mixers even less than they do now.

Now go ahead and tell me how YOU wont play this game, if allrounders wont be able to be the best in all skills, with absolutely no penalty. I couldn't care less tbh, I'd rather not see your whining here anymore.

#14 Aislinn

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 03:28 PM

Why is there a No option if I'm not allowed to choose it?
Is not agreeing with you whining?  And why aren't you yelling at the other No voters?
Or is it just me that is not allowed to vote and answer the question that was asked?

#15 malameo

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 03:30 PM

No
I voted no
I voted no
(i agree with Aislinn, world comes to an end!)

but that's because the poll doesn't talk about allrounders per se, just 'would they be penalized in a/d' - and that's a no.

View PostSoD, on 07 October 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

If we were to have no penalty for all rounders, then the economy would just be screwed. Fighters would buy stuff from mixers even less than they do now.

SoD has a great point, and you have to understand that ECONOMY isn't just a figure of speech, it's about 'can i buy something from players', not everyone wants to fight in gear available from NPC or pay high price to get someone to make it, or have to look for a week to buy some SR/BR/whatever in reasonable price because everyone makes only for themselves, and 'can i sell anything i make', not everyone wants to sell stuff to NPC at a loss just to buy some more books and progress in the mixing skill. i know those two COULD cancel each other out, but making a mistake at early stage makes it harder to fix later

what i really think is: NO a/d penalty, but NO to all skills at the same time too. at least consider choosing what skills you can make end items in at the moment (current mixing god -> can mix stuff over XX level; changing god takes lots of time - just an example). time is no penalty at all, because atm there is a point in each skill where you can mix anything, and with soft cap it's even more obvious that at some point you stop leveling that. i understand that you don't want to be forever bound by the skill choice you make in the beginning, and players like Aislinn who just have fun with many skills are ok, but if allrounder style is possible, there will be others who grab the economy and do whatever they want with it because they have their fingers in every jar

EDIT: and reduced market (because large part of the players makes stuff for themselves/friends) will make it easier to screw with the economy. and those who choose to only have 1 mixing skill to help them with gc for fighting, or no mixing skill at all, will be at a huge disadvantage

#16 Infamous

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:55 PM

IDK on all 3, kinda conflicted on this matter.

you should be able to do anything you want, but focusing on other skills should disadvantage you in fighting, but imo way less then it is now.
as is all-rounders spend too much nexus on mixing which is a huge setback in fighting.
would be nice if nexus req could be lowered quite alot so mixers still miss out on a few attributes by spending more nexus then the pure fighter, but still have some nice fights.

Or maybe no disadvantage at all, the more PK material we can get the better, keeps pk active and interesting.

#17 bog

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:25 PM

If you want to be able to specialise ( add more of something to your sword or needle swing ) then you should be able to

its nice to spread your build at times though, or try new options. Perhaps if :

It is made more beneficial to specialise, although to do so requires the sacraficing of other progression.

You should be able to distribute your PP more easily, without such resetting where suddenly you have none again. Let the players shuffle the nexus, but allways at a common disadvantage. For example you know the Guy with the Axe and HEAVY ( weight penalty anyone ) armor would be surrounded fast by those who invested in lots of distance offence. But when the alchemist turns up , where do you meet the Alchemist ? In a PK map ?

Nope, different builds and specialisations happen all on thier own but you should be able to distribute your desired build in a balanced but easier way (easier meaning resetting all PP to 0 just because you want to adjust what youve done for 3 months straight is odd, but charging ever increasing amounts to do it is also penalty)

if we are taking penaltys here why arent we playing football

#18 Grendous

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:43 PM

I voted no to first question. People keep mentioning economy apparently they don't try to sell in market channel. I thought about this earlier (accidentally) and if you have a group of people working together each could specialize in a specific skill but I still feel nexus shouldn't use pps maybe get a set max amount of nexus points so you can spend on becoming a master at one skill or a jack of all trades and medocre at all

#19 Bat17

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:01 AM

I voted No, I think ppl should choose their own path, and time for most ppl is what makes the difference, besides it is not the high end that makes the difference! The bread and butter stuff for mixing is probably the mid-range stuff anyway. BR's/SR's followed latter by CF for pots. Aug leather and probably chain mails for manu, job to tell there with no dailies to skew results, crafting - Rings and Meds? High end stuff like COL’s are nice but never gonna be a big market.

Bat17


#20 groomsh

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

No.
No.
No.

In my opinion the ability to mix and fight (in whatever means) should only be affected by your build/stats and the appropriate skill. Not with some artificialy created penalty.
There is enough penalty in the time it takes to level all the skills - and if you chose to level all skills (and take the time to do it), you should be rewarded for doing so have equal chance.
Of course the other thing is, if you'll ever catch on those who specialize ;)




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