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On Item Removal and Player Death

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#1 Rabbitman

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 06:09 PM

Hello all,

I would like to start a discussion on any changes we would like to see in the inter-related topics of player deaeth and item removal from the game.  Section 1 defines the difficulties Learner faces from a game design perspective through three important considerations.  In Section 2, I analyze how the current system fits within these three considerations.  In Section 3, I describe my ideas for how we can make the whole system better.

Section 1 - Important Considerations

For many modern games, item removal from the game comes primarily from players selling their old gear/items to the npc for gold/credits/etc to be used in new gear.  However, in games like this there are many more types of base items/equipment and typically have many permutations in the "quality" or "abilities" or "skills" attached with that individual item.  I.E. In the Diablo games you could find a staff which would allow you to cast a specifc spell.  The staff would have its base stats; however, it could also have bonus stats, extra elemental damage, a randomized number of extra charges etc.  So pretty much every staff you found would be slightly different.  This leads to players keeping the best of an individual type of weapon, and selling the rest to the npc for small amounts of currancy or holding onto epic gear for personal use/trade.  However, OL is not set up for this style of new and dynamic items due to server constraints/client constraints/underlying game design.  Additionally, there is no quality to an item, or tags differentiating one serpent sword or one titanium chain mail from another.  This leads to the first two considerations:

1.  Item Availability:  Items have to leave the game at approximately the same rate that they enter or else all items will be essentially worthless in time.

2.  Player Experience:  How death and item removal is handled must consider player fun.  This must include both PvE and PvP.  In every mmorpg there is some penalty for death.  In some games the penalty is lost progress in a quest/instance/raid, or it may be lost time before you can respawn (or lost time walking through the UW), or it could be lost experience (yikes!), or it could be a financial loss like EL/OL, or in intense games such as Diablo II or Path of Exile death could mean your character is permanently gone.  Thus, the third consideration is this:

3.  Death Penalty:  There needs to be some reason why it is preferable not to die.




Section 2 - Current System

1.  Item Availability:  The rate of rare ingredients/equipment entering the game seems to be lower than the rate of it leaving based on how difficult it is to find rare items on the market (even offering to overpay); however, only Learner has access to the actual numbers on this to confirm.  But overall we are not having a market swamped with capes/serpent sword/iron sets etc at this time, so rare items are still worth something in OL (which is a good thing).

In the current system, (rare) items enter the game either through the following means:

a.  Harvesting
b.  Creature drops (invasion or normal)
c.  Rare mixes (enriched essences)
d.  NPC purchases

Currently in OL rare ings are not sold by the NPC, so that leaves only Harvesting and Creature drops as means for these ingredients to enter the game.  At this time the find rate on these items seems a bit low in my personal opinion, at least on the items that have a consistent exit strategy, but we can talk about that later.

Items leave the game through these means:

d.  (Death) Bag poofing  
e.  Breakages (Tool or Equipment)
f.  Mixing critical failures
g.  Mixing in school
h.  NPC sales

From what I have seen and heard in the community, significantly more capes, serpent swords, gatherers etc are broken during combat than lost to death bags poofing.  Note this does NOT include losses to getting bag jumped, because those items were still picked up by a player and thus are still in the game.  In fact, there have been very few rare items lost to death bags poofing in recent months when compared with the number of items broken.  In addition to equipment breakage, some rare ingredients leave the game through tool breakages.  Imagine how many more efe would be on the market if vial molds did not require efe to mix, or if they simply never broke!  Mixing critical failures are another way rare ings will be removed from the game on occasion; however, this is generally less than bag poofing and breakages.

2.  Player Experience:  Removal of your nice stuff pretty much always sucks regardless of how it happens.  In my experience, how annoyed I get with each type of loss scales in this order:

(most painful way to lose items)
a.  Death bag is bag jumped (you personally lose the item, but it stays in the game so "technically" not relevant)
b.  Unrepairable item breakage (e.g. capes/vial mold)
c.  Death bag poofs
d.  Mixing critical fail
e.  Failed repair on damage item at Tankel.
(least painful way to lose items)

My rationale for this ordering is this:  For failed repair on a damaged item at Tankel, he has a fairly good rate on repairing items, so you generally get a few chances breaking something before it is completely gone.  Additionally, you have choices available to you about how to deal with damaged item.  You can continue using the item, you can sell the item to other players, or you can try and repair it with Tankel.  It still sucks when Tankel does not repair something, but it hurts the least.  Next I said mixing critical fails.  The reason I say this doesn't suck too bad is because a good mixer will build estimated fail rates into the price you sell items for, so you essentially won't "lose" anything in the long term average.  Next I said death bags poofing.  The game gives players the opportunity to try and recover the bag.  If you lose your death bag to it poofing (not to bag-jump) it is most often your fault for getting in over your head in some situation, or not remembering where you were in a map, etc.  So basically it sucks, but it does not leave you angry with the game...rather it leaves you angry with yourself for failing to recover your bag in time. Lastly, I ranked an unrepairable item breakage as being the worst way for an item to leave the game.  In my experience this leaves me the most pissed off with the game (not with myself) because it was straight bad luck in which I had no opportunity to avoid the loss.  This is an important distinction, players being upset with themselves means they can try to be better/improve skills/etc; players being upset with the game has the potential to lead to players quitting the game.

On the topic of players bagjumping other players, this feels like the worst way to lose an item.  You "beat" the system, were able to get back to your bag in time (possibly fighting many creatures to get to it), only to find that another player screwed you.  This leads to players being upset with:

1) the other player
2) the game mechanics
3) themselves

This in my personal opinion makes for a dangerous combination which can cause players to quit the game.  However, simply removing drops on death is not a viable solution without some alternative, which leads us into the how the current system deals with the penalty on death. (On a slight side note, killing another player in PvP and getting an epic drop bag is really fun for player getting the drop xD).

3.  Death Penalty:  The current system has a few different penalties that get imposed on death.  The first and most obvious one is you drop items.  This has the potential to be a huge deficit as you could conceivably lose items worth over a week worth of harvesting (e.g. mirror cape).  Additionally, you are teleported to the underworld and have to waste time walking out.  In most cases you drop all your teleport spells/rings which means you have to walk even further.  This system accomplishes the goal of a death penalty very well, players really hate dying since the penalty is so large.






Section 3 - Possible changes

The goal of this section is to propose how we can better balance player fun and item removal.  Firstly, I would like to change the drops on death in these ways:

1.  Make all equippable gear in inventory and currently equipped undropable; however, give each piece of gear a smallish chance to break on death.  (Possibly with a maximum number of 2 pieces of gear damaged per death, with currently equipped gear rolled first).

2.  Make all equippable gear that is a rare drop/requires a rare drop have a damaged version (i.e. add item "Tattered Mirror Cape" - Gives 5% chance to mirror opponents damage), and add repair option/quest for the new damaged gear  This will help with the frustration of just having your gear poof and feeling like it was just bad luck.

3.  Keep all consumable items having a chance to drop (potions/essences/rings/books/etc).  This gives some incentive to PvP as you can still get diss rings, emps, essences etc as drops from your opponent.

4.  For all stackable items, allow players to only drop a subset of the item on death (I.E. if you have 10 votd rings on you, you may drop all 10 or you may only drop 1).  This helps with the frustration of being unable to quickly return to a storage once you are out of the UW.

5.  Increase the size of the UW.  The rationale here is to transition from most of the detriment to dying being financial to being more of a time waste.  You still don't want to die because you have to waste your time to get out, but you are much less likely to lose very expensive gear.  For more information on this, see the discussion in this thread: http://www.other-lif...816-underworld/

6.  Add a spirit/ghost mode you enter directly after death similar to what was mentioned in my instance thread and here:  http://www.other-lif...-die/��This allows more team-play with resurrection spells, and allows players to check their surroundings/coordinates before letting their spirit pass on.  My recommendation in this would be you have up to 30 seconds as a spirit before you will automatically poof and spawn in the UW; however, a button will pop up that says "respawn" which will allow you to skip the rest of the waiting time if you choose.  One other aspect to consider is whether you will drop when you become a spirit or when your spirit poofs.

I honestly believe if this system were adopted more rare items would leave the game than in the current system.  It might even become necessary to increase drop/harvesting find rates to accomodate.  But, I think this system would help make the game more fun while still meeting the Item Availability, Player Experience, and Death Penalty considerations.  Post questions, comments, or additional item loss/player death suggestions below.

Achilles

#2 sirdan

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 08:10 PM

1-4 are great and would work great. You could put a fairly heavy break chance on your gear when you die if rare stuff degraded. As far as dropping items on death goes, I rarely lose my stuff. The only time I ever lose my stuff is if i die during an invasion or if someone takes my death bag. Breaking stuff would help with taking out more items.

For PK maps though I feel like you should have a chance to drop your gear in addition to breaking it. Give them mean old pkers a good reason to go there.

5 Right now you can die almost anywhere in the continent and have plenty of time to walk back. Making the under world larger would make it harder to do but it would also be more annoying. Honestly I would much rather have less time on my DB than have to walk in the underworld further.

6 I think is a good idea but I don't see a need for an angel mode. Walking around before you dropped would make it too easy to get your bag back.
IMHO you should just die and a window should come up above your corpse and say "you have 30 seconds until respawn" and then it counts down and at 0 you respawn. your corpse could be resurrected with a spell that worked much like remote heal during the 30 seconds.

As a whole though I think this would actually make dying a more pleasant experience for a fighter. You have your gear assuming it doesn't break so you could fight your way back to your other items.
I also speculate that losing things on death wont make leaps and bounds of differences in items being removed from the game. The players will either die less or not bring their good gear if it is not worth the risk.

#3 themuntdregger

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 09:03 PM

Liked Rabbitmans post. Very enjoyable and interesting to read. Yup, i'd agree with the general thrust that death somehow needs to rebalancing, particularly damned bag-jumpers.

It's not so much the bag-jumping that annoys me as the fact that there's virtually no recourse beyond red-tagging and flaming the miscreant. However, most bj'ers are not just immune, but positively encourage that kind of thing (see taunting by et_alors). My small suggestion, for whatever its worth, is to level the playing field by automatically rendering the bj'er temporarily pk-able on any map by any member of the guild to which the bj'ed player belongs.

Ofc the bj'er could simply wander around naked with all his ill gotten gains safely in sto. Alas they wouldn't have that luxury if getting pk'ed resulted in a random selection of loot from their sto being dropped.

#4 CoduX

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Posted 21 January 2015 - 09:04 PM

Overall it was very well thought out, highlighting the main issues and problems on the subjects, whilst providing excellent counter-arguments and solutions to these problems.

The ghost/spirit idea is interesting. I like the 30 second till auto-spawn in the UW but I also like Dan's idea about a possible future spell that would allow resurrection in that 30 second period (of course, it would have to have a high level magic required to cast since it sounds almost like an OP spell).

Moving on...

What about introducing a new item (padlock perhaps..?) that you hold in your inventory and if you die you drop you bag like normal, but it has a 'lock' on the bag for a certain about of time before 'degrading' and the bag is there either ready to be jumped/poofed/collected.

I propose this:
No 'padlock': Bag is normally dropped and accessible to anybody/anyone and 'poofs' at normal time rate (just like it is now)
'Padlock': Locks your bag from anybody/everyone except yourself but after padlock degrades, bag instantly 'poofs', to make things fair and not having a padlock as OP

#5 winter

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 07:03 AM

Nice and well thought out Achilles.  Some of my thoughts here - albeit not as nicely organized as yours:

First, I would refer ppl to recent topics in which we discuss Bound items and drops/creatures picking up bags [edited, links added]

1. if the issue is the relative number of rare items in the game (too many or too few) -[which, I think that equation might change as the player base increases] - I think there is nothing wrong with losing items through chance as long as it is equally likely to get items though chance.  Through carelessness or risk taking is another question altogether.  here's what I mean:
  • If you go into a PK zone, you might die and lose stuff.  If you are in a tough invasion, you might die and lose stuff (more about this below). you are taking risks or being careless, you should expect it.
  • If you are fighting with an item and it breaks, or mixing something and crit fails, that's chance, and you have no way to prevent it other than not using or mixing.
Personally, I think we should encourage ppl to USE their good stuff and to MIX cool things... so losing items by chance I think has the largest potential to adversely affect the game.  I think it is ok for these things to be in place, but there should be an equal ability for someone to get these things. I don't think it's right for a player to spend 100kgc on something and have it break the first time they use it. I think there would be a progressive break chance based on how often something is used or its age or something (yes, a new behind the scenes attribute for each item).  

As much of a bummer as it is to lose thing, it is just as awesome to find good things!  People will not be upset for long when they find something cool.

2. for dropping things upon death:
  • ghosts would be great/necessary if we have a raise dead spell, unnecessary otherwise
  • I would like to see a period of time where all dbs are not grabable by anyone but the dropper, then grabable by anyone, then poof.
  • I think it would be fun if a bjer was PKable for a period of time too - and if killed, they automatically drop what they grabbed and perhaps other stuff?
Otherwise, I like your ideas, and agree that whatever we do should be in an effort to increase fun.  I think a system where people have powerful stuff and they never lose it and just more stuff comes into the game is not fun.  Also a game where people work really hard for stuff and lose it quickly or not by their own fault, that's not fun either.

Thanks for the great topic Achilles!

#6 butler

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Posted 22 January 2015 - 11:49 AM

View Postsirdan, on 21 January 2015 - 08:10 PM, said:

5 Right now you can die almost anywhere in the continent and have plenty of time to walk back. Making the under world larger would make it harder to do but it would also be more annoying. Honestly I would much rather have less time on my DB than have to walk in the underworld further.

I'm just going to say, the new continent is designed to have greater links than the old, so this may become a more important thing to think about later on.

Also, nice post. I would say more, but I think I've said most of my things in linked threads or you've posted them here.

#7 Kyndor

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Posted 25 January 2015 - 10:00 AM

View Postthemuntdregger, on 21 January 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's not so much the bag-jumping that annoys me as the fact that there's virtually no recourse beyond red-tagging and flaming the miscreant. . . .My small suggestion, for whatever its worth, is to level the playing field by automatically rendering the bj'er temporarily pk-able on any map by any member of the guild to which the bj'ed player belongs.

I LOVE this idea! I would even pay to make it an official poll if I thought L had the time to code it . . .

#8 AlddrA

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 04:28 PM

View PostKyndor, on 25 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

View Postthemuntdregger, on 21 January 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's not so much the bag-jumping that annoys me as the fact that there's virtually no recourse beyond red-tagging and flaming the miscreant. . . .My small suggestion, for whatever its worth, is to level the playing field by automatically rendering the bj'er temporarily pk-able on any map by any member of the guild to which the bj'ed player belongs.

I LOVE this idea! I would even pay to make it an official poll if I thought L had the time to code it . . .

Count me in too munt



View PostCoduX, on 21 January 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

Overall it was very well thought out, highlighting the main issues and problems on the subjects, whilst providing excellent counter-arguments and solutions to these problems.

The ghost/spirit idea is interesting. I like the 30 second till auto-spawn in the UW but I also like Dan's idea about a possible future spell that would allow resurrection in that 30 second period (of course, it would have to have a high level magic required to cast since it sounds almost like an OP spell).

Moving on...

What about introducing a new item (padlock perhaps..?) that you hold in your inventory and if you die you drop you bag like normal, but it has a 'lock' on the bag for a certain about of time before 'degrading' and the bag is there either ready to be jumped/poofed/collected.

I propose this:
No 'padlock': Bag is normally dropped and accessible to anybody/anyone and 'poofs' at normal time rate (just like it is now)
'Padlock': Locks your bag from anybody/everyone except yourself but after padlock degrades, bag instantly 'poofs', to make things fair and not having a padlock as OP

and this one too.....both great ideas  o/

#9 butler

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 04:44 PM

View PostAlddrA, on 26 January 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

View PostKyndor, on 25 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

View Postthemuntdregger, on 21 January 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's not so much the bag-jumping that annoys me as the fact that there's virtually no recourse beyond red-tagging and flaming the miscreant. . . .My small suggestion, for whatever its worth, is to level the playing field by automatically rendering the bj'er temporarily pk-able on any map by any member of the guild to which the bj'ed player belongs.

I LOVE this idea! I would even pay to make it an official poll if I thought L had the time to code it . . .

Count me in too munt

My question is how will it know between player deathbags and monster bags? What happens if multiple people die on the same bag? Won't this mean anyone saving your db will also be pkable, not just bagjumpers?

#10 Learner

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 05:01 PM

You also have to think about ways people will try to abuse it in order to be able to attack other players. Almost anything that allows for a recourse against players either can be abused like that or it removes a reason even to have death bags at all ... which makes PK less inviting. I don't like there being different rules for different types of bags ... doesn't make sense.

#11 themuntdregger

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Posted 26 January 2015 - 08:45 PM

View Postbutler, on 26 January 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

View PostAlddrA, on 26 January 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

View PostKyndor, on 25 January 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

View Postthemuntdregger, on 21 January 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

It's not so much the bag-jumping that annoys me as the fact that there's virtually no recourse beyond red-tagging and flaming the miscreant. . . .My small suggestion, for whatever its worth, is to level the playing field by automatically rendering the bj'er temporarily pk-able on any map by any member of the guild to which the bj'ed player belongs.

I LOVE this idea! I would even pay to make it an official poll if I thought L had the time to code it . . .

Count me in too munt

My question is how will it know between player deathbags and monster bags? What happens if multiple people die on the same bag? Won't this mean anyone saving your db will also be pkable, not just bagjumpers?

Damn thats a good point Butler, for two reasons :

a) I 'd not thought about accumulation with either creature bags or other players bags

b ) I'd not thought about ppl trying to rescue bags on behalf of others

View PostLearner, on 26 January 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

You also have to think about ways people will try to abuse it in order to be able to attack other players. Almost anything that allows for a recourse against players either can be abused like that or it removes a reason even to have death bags at all ... which makes PK less inviting. I don't like there being different rules for different types of bags ... doesn't make sense.

Yup, I also agree with your point about potential abuse. On balance, I don't think using bags or relying on code to identify bag-jumpers will help us. However, I still believe the answer lie's in using gameplay mechanisms to provide players with a greater means to avoid, disuade, or gain satisfaction from bag jumpers.

Hopefully, its something that we can all continue to think on.

#12 winter

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 05:32 AM

Hum, yes.. does anyone know how other games deal with this?  It's been a long time, but I seem to remember dying in RuneScape once, and there was a little ghost... for a period of time I was the only one who could get my drop??

If we really wanted to do something to make it so someone couldn't get our bag, we could use a ghost, which does nothing more than stay there, on the bag taking up the spot.  The ghost stays for a period of time, or until the player agrees to "give up the ghost" and go to the UW.  Without any changes to how bags are done, that would at least prevent bjers from taking it right away, perhaps enough time for a friend or guildie to come along and try to help (especially useful in PK areas I would think)?

#13 butler

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Posted 27 January 2015 - 11:19 AM

As I posted on another thread (and got down repped for XD), a game i use to play gave you the ability to either have your bags locked to everyone but you, or completely opened, with a 6 hours time limit till it poofed (this game had very very horrible monster traps, and the map was millions of tiles in every direction, with monsters tending to follow patterns that made bag recovery more... tricky.). If you kept the default, where you were the only one able to pick things up, then you either had to have an envoy (that made things very clunky), or risk it yourself, or you got someone else to recover it, using the open to everyone option. The way this worked though was you always dropped 100% of what was equipped (and you usually had 40+ items equipped, shields, gloves, torso, trousers, boots, L ear ring, R ear ring, rings for fingers, necklace, cape, bracelets, helms, etc. etc.), so you would always want to recover the db since you carried so much on you at one time.

This game also had laser tag (was fantasy game, i got pwnt so much)

Event maps and races to kill targets (with a * by their name) meant people risked more, but anything on a secluded map never dropped. In PK you had a dice roll chance on every item, much like our current system. Guild Wars were constant, and worked in a similiar way to secluded maps and other pk, but on non pk maps.

Issue with comparing systems in other games is often they have an entire different ecosystem of how the game works. There was so much connected to you dying, so much structure in how it worked, and the rules for it, that there is no chance most games solutions for this would translate directly here without being broken. But they could give us very interesting ideas to play around with our current and planned features.

#14 Grimm

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 07:45 PM

Pr0 ideas

#15 Learner

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Posted 31 January 2015 - 08:34 PM

Feel free to contribute to this discussion, but let me add one simple point ...

I feel for things like Armor/Weapons/cloaks etc ... the no drop and a small chance to break instead should be only for those items that are worn, not all the spares you are carrying. Otherwise people will be carrying around a lot more equipment with them with very little risk to what they swap to/re-euip.

#16 Fire

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Posted 01 February 2015 - 02:46 PM

Agree to your point, also I would code each drop rate for stuff like other for helms, other for boots etc, should not be a problem.

#17 Learner

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 10:55 AM

Reviving drop discussions, one small change that could be brought in and tuned is that WORN items have a different, lower drop rate. After much thought I don't think it should be no drop, but we could try something like 1/2 the chance of dropping worn items compared to items.

Other changes to drops (like stacked items dropping differently less then the full stack) can also be be considered after we see how this worn item change affects the game.

#18 BlakKat

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 06:11 PM

From the logic stand-point it makes sense to have less chance for worn items to drop. After all those items were on your body when you died. You should be less likely to loose them as compared to items in your tiny/small/large pack.

I like the chances to be able to get back faster to storage via teleport after a partial drop of the stack. After all this would remove the nuisance to walk through IP/WS/DP to votd or to where ever your favorite storage is. However, you also will be able to teleport right back onto the map where you died. I do not think that this is a good idea. I feel that it would be good to let players cool-down after a death and think before heading right back to where they died.

I find the ghost idea quite interesting, especially the aspects of allowing one to explore the surroundings, see how the team-mates fare, and identify BJers.

#19 Warlock

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 08:33 PM

Instead of dropping items/gear inj Invasions for example, how about just losing some OA exp, dependant on the player level.. PK should definitely keep as is with item/gear drops. This will certainly help in Invasions/DTF and such

#20 AlddrA

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Posted 14 March 2016 - 05:28 AM

Disagree with the suggestion of losing OA experience upon death as I am the Queen of dying.   My OA is now 93 and still have over 20million to next level that will be taking me another month to achieve.    So NO to losing OA experience.   :( :angry: :mellow: :huh:





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