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#1 Warlock

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 01:07 PM

Well i've been saying this since the beginning but, cyclops are awfully boring. Nearing 93 A/D and cycs just aint cuttin' it anymore. I do believe Rabbitman/Achilles posted some very good suggestions here - http://www.other-lif...__hl__instances

With your work on A.I. for the mobs Learner, you could do some real great stuff. Have a selling point for the game, something that REALLY stands out.

Would like the idea of solo instances too, obviously scaled down enough that we could use these without much cooldown and a different sorce for training instead of just anticipating weekend's invasions.

Right now, the invasions are the only thing to look forward to, besides the odd day of Joker, lol, i think instances need to be top priority. Things are starting to get a bit stale again.

#2 Learner

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Posted 30 April 2015 - 02:39 PM

First of all, don't just say Instance, because what OL will be implementing will not be the EL Instance setup. Many of the changes related to mobs, drops, spawns, & invasions have been getting changed to allow for much better Instance/Invance then what EL has. It needs to be done right.  There are also other modules that have been outlines that will add to Invasions/Instance/Invances as well.

Instead of just asking for instances, brainstorm about what you'd really like to see fo everyone, and everyone else should chime in to help plan it.

Also as I've said before, the reason nothing is being added to the normal game beyond Cyc's is to avoid having to redo it as Magic & Ranging rebalancing takes effect. The same applies to any short term attempts to add other things for fighters. What's been done for Invasions is PART of preparing for instance/Invamces as well as future Invasion enhancements.

#3 Kiwi06

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:41 AM

Here's me brainstorming.

I think instances can be transformed into the way they work in other games (which I like a lot):

You go into instance alone or with a friend. You have some sort of goal you're working towards, but in the end you progress and learn a little more about the STORY.

For example, maybe you come across a castle. You came here because you heard a rumor or you're on a quest of some sort, or maybe you're just exploring. There's an NPC outside the castle who gives you some dialogue so you know what the castle is and what might be in it. Then he says he can get you into the castle alone (solo instance) or maybe with a friend (group instance). Bip bam boom, you're in the instance. By the time you're done, you've found the secret, killed the boss, rescued the damsel, or some such other. You get a quest reward appropriate to the quest, and perhaps you hear about another castle or place or cave or damsel or something. This is the way a lot of MMOs operate their quests, and the core mechanic seems to be available for OL.

One thing I think should change about the way instances work is not making them replayable. This would mean you can't use them to mindlessly grind or to level up other players (or God forbid Alts) by killing everything while they sit back and watch. They would have a recommended level range and perhaps a level limit (although that might not work if you need the quest).

I think we need to implement instances not only as the End Game, but as a core mechanic of the game. Of course, there can be End Game instances too. End Game instances would probably be filled with Cyclopes (which WL would find quite boring) at least until we get new and interesting mobs.

#4 winter

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:47 AM

Kiwi, that's an awesome idea!  and... I think it's what has been referred to as a Gambit (http://www.other-lif...age__hl__gambit).  Check that other topic.  If what you are saying is different than that, please expound further.

Thanks for the brainstorming, keep it up!!!!

#5 Kiwi06

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 11:52 AM

Yep. Pretty much exactly like gambits. I think a lot of quests should be done this way. The part where it's centered around a skill doesn't matter so much, but could be an aspect of some of them. Quests as they exist now have very little variance; go to this person and give him this thing, or go to this place and touch this thing, or go to this person and talk about this thing. The problem with that is that it provides a tendency to BUY the items you need instead of getting them by roleplay means, which is what a quest is supposed to be geared toward (unless of course it's random items you need and the process of making/getting them have absolutely no bearing on the actual quest, which I hate).

Uh, I guess this turned into a rant about quests rather than about instances. But I'm just saying that it's a good way to do roleplay/quests and I'd like to steer away from the "go in, kill things, get exp" mentality that EL's instances seemed to be geared toward. The entrances to instances should be AT the instance, not at some battlehall (or worse, a simple queue interface like other games have), and they should have some sort of roleplay element. Hardcore Grinders can ignore the RP, but hardcore RPers can't ignore the fact that there's no RP.

(Edited for her pleasure)

#6 winter

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:09 PM

heh, plenty of ppl miss EL-style instances (never done one myself).  See http://www.other-lif...k-training-map/ for more on griders vs rpers (no, not grinder like the sandwich)  Looks like we have common themes going on here.

(btw Kiwi, what does "Edited for her pleasure" mean??)

#7 Rabbitman

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Posted 06 May 2015 - 05:14 PM

We can call instances/raids/gambits whatever we want. I think what warlock is trying to say echos what most of the people who have trained to high a/d in OL have said. We enjoy the game mechanics but are frustrated that there is not a fun activity to do mid-week or on weekends when invasions have slowed down. (Training most definitely does not count as it is currently :P)

#8 Warlock

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Posted 07 May 2015 - 08:19 AM

View PostKiwi06, on 06 May 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

One thing I think should change about the way instances work is not making them replayable. This would mean you can't use them to mindlessly grind or to level up other players (or God forbid Alts) by killing everything while they sit back and watch. They would have a recommended level range and perhaps a level limit (although that might not work if you need the quest).

I think we need to implement instances not only as the End Game, but as a core mechanic of the game. Of course, there can be End Game instances too. End Game instances would probably be filled with Cyclopes (which WL would find quite boring) at least until we get new and interesting mobs.

In EL, Instances were weekly(no exp bonus, just for GC/drops) and Invances you could do daily(a bit of exp bonus at the end but not much gc/drops) i think the system here should still be similar to this. No 'mindless grinding', but just something else we could do daily, change of scenery.

And end-game instances, would need a shit ton more than just cyclops i can assure you, otherwise, whats the point? ive killed probably 60k of those fuckers. You dont quite understand the frustration and boredom that this mob brings.
There's a huge range of mobs you probably dont even know about Kiwi. Instances/Invances should bring new mobs completely. Me, and quite a few others can train/kill desert chims/feros BEAUTIFULLY, perfect time to add them.

I know people who have quit this game because of this reason alone, NO NEW MOBS.

#9 CoduX

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 03:13 AM

I suggest that the fundamentals for an instance is created, nothing solid but an instance to just chuck in a few mobs for now to.
a) bring something new
B) liven things up
c) make the long-term/high-lvled players have something to focus on other than whine about the lack of updates (I confess to whining about this, I too am bored and only really log on for weekend invasions due to lack of new content)

It would obviously be changed in almost every state and form in the end when they are properly researched and planned out.
Just a basic instance planned and just chuck in some challenging mobs for NOW. Like I said, it will be removed and in its place a brand-new instance that is planned, along with multiple variations.

Do you all get what we are saying? Us high-lvled players don't give a shit if its a shit instance, we just want something new rather than be promised updates from 2 years ago...(not even exaggerating here which is frankly quite sad)

It might sound like I'm having a go but really I'm just trying to throw across some constructive criticism. I am sure that many are thinking the same thing.

All in all, I'm echoing Warlock. +1 mate

#10 EatsAllLife

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 09:11 AM

Of course, I'd like to see the instance/invance happen, one thing I miss, but of course, without C2 in game, there is not map for an invance. I myself in EL on my OWN char, am not powerful enough to go into a instance and live, but in OL my char is at the 40-60 range, and we could use Naralik as the map maybe? Or have a "special" Map only accessable from the invance/instance, like we take the C2 map (Drawing a blank on name) But make it a invance accessable only.

#11 butler

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 11:05 AM

For instance maps, I would like to put a lot of thought, forward planning and design put into them once we get around to them so that we can use the same map in multiple ways, possibly with different .def files and goals, and to make sure that they are cleverly designed and give a certain degree of tactics that are absent from EL maps.

I don't think randomly cloning a map for this purpose is wise.
I don't think rushing through a crap and unimaginative map is wise.

I have several ideas for these maps when we get to them. The same with PK maps, etc. etc. A lot of us do. The issue is development time, and in this way I agree with kiwi. We are heavy beta. This shouldn't be considered a fully playable game right now. And sadly, right now, for instances, so that it is as time efficient as possible to add updates without having to go over the same old ground again (both for Learner and the Volunteers), instances will end up with us having to redo the whole thing at least once, if not three or four times as we roll out changes to magic, ranging and summoning, as well as getting the maps to a quality level of design.

#12 Warlock

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 01:20 PM

We already have instance maps that we can use for the time being.

Was on the test server just yesterday with Achilles testing out a few mob waves, on the swamp instance map.

#13 DEATH_

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 12:36 AM

IMO we shouldnt put it into lvls like 40-60 60-80 it should be open for all. what if i want to take a group of lower lvl friends to have fun. even if they have hard time hitting they could always rang and have just as much fun. testing it with achi warlock and seal other day was fun 2nd time we went was very hard but still fun thats what we are looking for is some fun to get away from all the cycs that we slay day in and out.

#14 Rabbitman

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 08:43 AM

The idea I have been tossing around about instance caps is to have no lower limit on players who can enter. However, have an upper limit based on instance difficulty and CL. If a player with too high CL enters, their a/d is capped at a level to force their CL within the cap.

Aa an example, if a player with a CL of 280 with 90 a/d wanted to enter a 250 cap instance, their a/d would be capped at 75 while in the instance.

#15 Learner

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 08:48 AM

the problem I see with capping is a high level player getting capped still has X-Attr's & Health of a high level player. I think capping should be discouraged OR a lot of thought has to go into it.

#16 butler

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 10:55 AM

View PostLearner, on 13 May 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

the problem I see with capping is a high level player getting capped still has X-Attr's & Health of a high level player. I think capping should be discouraged OR a lot of thought has to go into it.

That's the problem with DPA in EL. Higher level players still have a huge advantage through non A/D levels, attributes, health, mana and carry which capping doesn't actually solve. What you get is just a slightly less skewed result, rather than an equal(ish) level between players.

#17 winter

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 10:59 AM

View PostRabbitman, on 13 May 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

The idea I have been tossing around about instance caps is to have no lower limit on players who can enter. However, have an upper limit based on instance difficulty and CL. If a player with too high CL enters, their a/d is capped at a level to force their CL within the cap.

Aa an example, if a player with a CL of 280 with 90 a/d wanted to enter a 250 cap instance, their a/d would be capped at 75 while in the instance.

hm, I get what you're saying.. buuut, I don't really go for artificially changing someone's stats (skills, whatever) temporarily.  Just me $0.02,

#18 Rabbitman

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 09:38 PM

View Postbutler, on 13 May 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 13 May 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

the problem I see with capping is a high level player getting capped still has X-Attr's & Health of a high level player. I think capping should be discouraged OR a lot of thought has to go into it.

That's the problem with DPA in EL. Higher level players still have a huge advantage through non A/D levels, attributes, health, mana and carry which capping doesn't actually solve. What you get is just a slightly less skewed result, rather than an equal(ish) level between players.

I understand where the dpa analogy is coming from, but thats not what I said. One big problem with dpa is that not every aspect of attributes were capped, as you mentioned. The way I proposed to lower player CL for a specific instance sould not have that problem.

Imagine 2 players with 70 a/d want to enter the same instance, capped at 200 CL. One is a mixer with a CL of 200, the other is a fighter with CL 240. The fighter's a/d would be capped inside the instance at mid 50s, while the mixer would still be 70 a/d.

The whole idea of measuring by CL instead of a/d is to accommodate the differences between mixers and fighters. The way I suggested to bring overcappers into the instance range should lower their fighting capabilities to match those within the cap. If we try it and it does not, then the problem is in the CL formula.

Achilles

#19 EatsAllLife

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 08:18 AM

Well also if you think about it, the attribs shouldn't matter, there are other ways of gaining the levels for oa too, like a crafter, could do that, and have the attribs that way and have a low a/d (At the cap) So it could make it even. But, if you're PK'ing chances are you wont have a crafter with fighter stats, but just an example.
I like the CAp idea so if a bigger player enters, they don't like flick all the mobs dead. But they get reduced a little bit. (Yes their X-Attribs will be higher, but as I said before, anyone could train another skill other than a/d to get the attribs for the fighter)

#20 Grimm

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 12:23 PM

In progress by Achilles




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