Jump to content

  •  
- - - - -

PK training map

player killing pk train newmap

  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#1 EatsAllLife

EatsAllLife

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 529 posts

Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:05 AM

I was thinking about the PK system and how we do not get any EXP for fighting and scoring a hit. We should have a map for this, because there isn't any point until 70 a/d for PKI so why not get something out of it, especially if you're helping a friend gain level. I.E. A little while ago, GypsyFae and I were Pk'ing to train her magic level so she could heal each of us for exp, but we got nothing out of the fighting part, it seems pretty useless.
We could make a whole new map to try and everything for this, like an indoor dojo for fighting like the one in WSC, but on full PK maps, have it remain the same.

I'd be willing to make the map if I knew how to use the map editor, I'd just need to learn, and I can start in the test server to try and figure maps out to test and all also if necessary. :D

#2 butler

butler

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1435 posts
  • LocationScotland

Posted 06 May 2015 - 10:48 AM

Em, exp for pk just encourages friendly fights. PK is player killing... reward killing, not keeping your opponent alive. We even changed the bloody name of Player vs Player (which most other games use for this stuff), but are less concentrated on killing. It's a bit weird. If we went for a dojo or fighting circuit kind of thing, then it should be done in a tactical team PK or free for all kind of event, rather than just a way for you to make cheap exp.

Really, I think you miss the point that PK means Player Killing. Which involves killing. I'm going to stress that again. The aim is to kill the other guy, and not to be killed yourself. That's the aim in PK in the nutshell. This idea is in line with the "oh, why aren't you returning my bag after PK" camp of thought, which all kind of detracts from PK and misses the point. I'm still a bit gobsmacked at this topic in the vein you attacked it. There are ways to do PK training, but a better way RP wise would be PK circuits which reward you for killing people in certain ways, fending off certain attacks, and handling PKI in a different way (say, reform the current system so that it is actually representative of skill instead of utter bs, as well as being able to separate types of PKI for different PK map rules, such as no cd maps or capped maps, or in this case, circuti maps). Make it a kind of entertainment sport with some small rewards and a kind of hierarchy to climb, make more tactical PK maps (which I should be thinking about >.> ) and handling how PK is rewarded for killing people so that it is more interesting. This also relies on actually getting fighting skills (att/def/ran/mag/sum) and equipment to a point where fighting players actually works and you can kill people tactically instead of fighting equally till someone cocks up or attacking low levels.

There is loads we could do to improve PK. Turning PK into "Friendly Fights" training, imo, is bollocks.

Also, maps are currently going through a master plan and are being orchestrated to work together, so if you do want to do map making, please speak to me & makiltur.

#3 winter

winter

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 305 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 06 May 2015 - 11:15 AM

Um, Butler, tell us how you really feel LOL :)

There are different camps out there in the game.  Some camps enjoy getting experience and leveling up quickly.  It is the folks in these camps that want things like EatsAllLife suggests here.  A way to step into an arena with x experience and come out (still standing) with x+y experience, where y = A LOT.  The point here is the exp, and there's little or no RP or storyline aspect to it (yeah ok, OL doesn't really have a storyline yet, but it will).  The point of the game is to get as powerful as you can, quickly.

Other camps are not keen on experience grinding (or at least when there's little to no risk or personal dedication).  The point of the game is to explore and risk and make friends and hone skills and eventually achieve a well earned place in the Halls Of Prominent Characters - those who, when players are faced with extreme bosses say things like, "Where is Butler?! We need Butler for this!"  It is the long history and patient character building that earns high levels and respect from peers.  (Incidentally these are the same folks who don't like it when characters are bought and sold.)

These different camps will forever be at odds.

#4 Kiwi06

Kiwi06

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • LocationMissouri, USA

Posted 06 May 2015 - 12:20 PM

Well put, Winter. I guess we know what side butler is on ;P

Anyway, I don't quite like the idea of a "friendly fight" that gives you lots of exp. In my opinion, "friendly fights" are rare enough as it is, that you would never gain any real experience from it. Thus we have no exp for pvp. However, "training" fights are verrrrry common, and it should be possible for one experienced at fighting to teach one who is inexperienced.

So I'm going to turn this into a discussion about THAT. To me this seems like the only way to satisfy both "camps" that Winter speaks about. The answer isn't to make a PK map for "friendly fights" or "training", but instead to rework the way we gain experience from them altogether.

I think "training" should be something that comes with a cost. You have to pay to get trained by someone. The better your trainer is, the better trained you're going to get. The trainer would provide you things like weapons and armor to train with. You do the training, whatever it is, and by the end you've gained a little experience in it.

So here's my bright idea (I admit I don't have much of a clue on how exactly to implement this):

The trainee must buy a training ticket. He trades it to to trainer. The trainer sees how much money is on the ticket and puts up an amount he will "spend" (you won't actually get any items) on equipment for the training. The money that the trainee put on the ticket transfers to the trainer, and the money that the trainer spends goes poof. Depending on how much you spend and how high the trainer's skill is, that is how much exp you will get for a training session (perhaps awarded per hit or per block etc). The training lasts until you get all of your exp. Once you've gotten it all, you go back to getting no exp for fighting.

#5 winter

winter

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 305 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 06 May 2015 - 01:01 PM

You are in a brainstorming mood today Kiwi :) I like how you are trying to bridge the gap.  I also like the idea of "training" with someone more experienced, and being a trainer and benefiting from it.

I'm not sure how to do it - but I like the idea that the one being trained has to pay.

It might be as easy as going into a special arena as EatsAllLife suggests... and hmmm, not sure... maybe you have some gc in your inventory. every time you train, lets say a/d with someone higher level than you, you get a certain amount of exp based on the difference in levels (or some calculation based on something like combat level).  Every time the lower level char gets exp, a certain amount of gc is exchanged automatically, between the inventories.  Regardless, I'd say damage taken is taken and ppl have to heal or die accordingly etc.  Don't want to make it too easy.  If you run out of money or are equal (maybe within a range - the trainer has to be sufficiently higher than the trainee), then no exp.

That might work for a/d where two chars are locked in combat.  Not sure how to do it with something like range tho... although range training can be done at a target if really necessary.

I'm not saying I LIKE pairing up exp grinding, but if we're going to consider it, I think Kiwi's got the right direction.

#6 Kiwi06

Kiwi06

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • LocationMissouri, USA

Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:16 PM

Yeah the idea is that you're spending money to be able to train. It makes sense. You still gotta put the time in to do the actual training. The benefit is a cooperative opponent who is not trying to kill you. That's really what you're paying for. You don't have to chase down unwilling opponents or worry about a monster killing you, but you don't get drops (which is the benefit of mob killing). Ultimately I'd like to balance it - one method is for spending money and gaining exp, and the other is for gaining exp and money.

I think it should be able to be done on any PK map.

I don't really like the idea of the trainer killing the trainee, but maybe in a land like OL they know you'll come back and learn from it lol.

#7 butler

butler

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1435 posts
  • LocationScotland

Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:31 PM

View Postwinter, on 06 May 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

<snip>
(Incidentally these are the same folks who don't like it when characters are bought and sold.)

These different camps will forever be at odds.
I have been vocally against character buying. I still think Player Killing should have rewards for doing what it says on the tin, but Kiwis idea is quite a nice idea as well.

I'm not sure how it works, but I think you want an NPC/s to have players register as Trainers (for a nominal licencing fee) and Trainees to register for classes (paying for blocks XD), with conditions set for passing "classes," which once achieved, give you the exp, and the trainer the money and possibly a little exp.

Imo trainers should be above trainees. Since it is PK training, it should be training you to PK. The best way to do that is to take on harder foes. This is however an incredibly biased suggestion because I take pleasure from surviving and fighting higher levels, and always have.

The issue is, this really needs more tactics in PK (and fighting in general) to work nicely imo. I also think that whatever exp/rewards gained from PK training should be less than from real PK. I'd actually like PKers to be paid for giving these lessons (hopefully encouraging more PKers to fight).

Another direction for training would just be registering as trainer/trainees and fighting till one person is *knocked unconscious*, other wise you've killed them, but in a training situation. This is more like PK, and will require some PK skills, and should involve fairly evenly matched people, or if you fancy skewing exp payouts, people of different levels. Once you knocked someone out, you get your exp, and the other guy gets a lot less. But we need to stop people *not* fighting to try and speed up this, and ensure they're fighting. Once you're knocked out, you get beamed somewhere safe. So a different direction, because I still want to minimise "Player Killing where nobody is killed." But if people don't want PK to work like that, at least let us rebrand it to PvP so the term does encompass whats actually happening instead of just being a bit of random and inaccurate label.

There is an issue with luring, but then, it is PK. You shouldn't take what you're not willing to lose... most of the training kit is cheap as well.

I still think there should be some rework of something like MM battle halls with PK events much in the vein of what Bat17 has suggested before.

and yes, I'm making no attempts to hide which side of this debate I'm on, even though I have consistently been more mixy/PvE built.

#8 winter

winter

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 305 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:33 PM

View PostKiwi06, on 06 May 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

I don't really like the idea of the trainer killing the trainee, but maybe in a land like OL they know you'll come back and learn from it lol.

The issue with letting them fight and don't die is that you could get a 70 a/d char get into the arena with a 1 a/d char.  The 70 char gives the 1 like 1 million gc, then they square off.  some hours later you have two 70 a/d characters.

If they take damage, then the issue takes care of itself.  First a 70 would have to be REALLY CAREFUL when training ppl really low.  They will have to take HEs and SRs or BRs with them, watch their HP etc.  I may not like it when ppl exp grind... I REALLY think it's WRONG when people can do it without paying attention.

#9 Kiwi06

Kiwi06

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • LocationMissouri, USA

Posted 06 May 2015 - 02:56 PM

Uh, yeah. Don't forget this is still two people FIGHTING. It comes with all the dangers of regular fighting because it is regular fighting only the trainer is generally trying not to kill you. That's why the higher the gap the more exp you get. Smaller the gap is less exp, so really it should take a long long time just to get a Lvl 69 to 70 if you've got a 70a/d trainer. He can't teach you much more than you already know.

If the 70 a/d wants to give a level 1 a million gc well that's his prerogative. Still would take a LONG time to level that up and no guarantee that 1mil gc could do it. Plus of course it's difficult not to kill him.

Combine death with my UW idea LOL xD

#10 EatsAllLife

EatsAllLife

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 529 posts

Posted 06 May 2015 - 04:07 PM

We could also for this, add a limit for X amount of time for Y amount of exp and X=Y=Z or the time in battle and EXP, like harvesting, have a cap for each hour. So with this, yes we can add in Kiwi's UW like this could be the PK UW, Not just a certain map or anything we could set it up for everywhere that has PK and you still get a Kill bonus for killing someone in PK. Even if over cap, like in Harvesting, when you get a Blessing from Queen of Nature.

#11 Rabbitman

Rabbitman

    That Mod Guy

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 238 posts

Posted 06 May 2015 - 05:16 PM

Neutral on this as long as the xp is not significantly faster than training pve. People who do not want to PK aren't going to magically start to PK because there is xp involved.

I think a better incentive to pk is continuing to make the best pve training spawns in PK maps (td, nc pk cave etc). To this end, I'd love to see some feros added to kf.

#12 Kiwi06

Kiwi06

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • LocationMissouri, USA

Posted 07 May 2015 - 04:36 AM

I was told that was why there was chimeran in KF o.o

#13 winter

winter

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 305 posts
  • LocationUSA

Posted 07 May 2015 - 06:06 AM

IMO, people that want to pk/pvp will do so and folks that don't want to won't, regardless of where the mobs are...  maybe ppl will go to PK maps to get the mobs, but it won't make them PKers.  Ppl go to TD as is for the mobs or to mix without cooldown, and don't PK.

I don't support the idea of putting cool or unique stuff in game for the purpose of getting people to PK.  Otoh, things may be put into PK areas to make it more challenging - ie so ppl pvp or otherwise have to be careful to not get killed by pkers.  This, however, generally lends itself to the practice of PKers purposely preying on non-pkers who are going there to harv or quest or even train.  I haven't really seen that in OL, but I've seen it in EL.

I'm not sure what I think about that... on the surface it doesn't seem fair for a high level pker to essentially 'own' unique resources just because they can kill anyone else who comes in the area. Would that happen? Is it Fair? Unfair? Good for the game? Would it breed resentment?  Is that ok?  I don't have those answers... and I bet different players have differing opinions too.

#14 Warlock

Warlock

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 632 posts
  • LocationLuton-London

Posted 07 May 2015 - 07:35 AM

View PostKiwi06, on 07 May 2015 - 04:36 AM, said:

I was told that was why there was chimeran in KF o.o

There are no chims in KF here, and any mob above cyclops L will say 'they aren't MEANT to be trained on here", so the spawns are nerfed. - hence why i want instance/invance ASAP. Theres a whole range of mobs you dont even know about Kiwi, we cant JUST have cyclops as end game.

#15 Rabbitman

Rabbitman

    That Mod Guy

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 238 posts

Posted 07 May 2015 - 07:37 AM

The TD cyclops spawn has really good experience. It is so good that people will fight over it and gather teams of their guilds to kick people out if they want it. I think that is good and healthy for the game. You still have the alternative of SKF cyclops which are lower exp but no risk. I'm saying that we should keep that same trend as more mobs are added.

#16 butler

butler

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1435 posts
  • LocationScotland

Posted 07 May 2015 - 11:10 AM

Rabbitman, PK hardly happens at these PK spawns. Nearly everyone in game is friends and doesn't want to fight. It really doesn't increase PK, as far as I see. It's so very rare. DCW in KF in EL where meant to help, were they not? PK was rare enough there.

I mean, nearly everyone doesn't expect you to attack in PK maps. You all work together on the current PK spawns, mostly.

#17 sircryalot

sircryalot

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 25 posts

Posted 07 May 2015 - 11:14 PM

agree with beaverman and wl .   pls never again afk pvp training

#18 CoduX

CoduX

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1231 posts
  • LocationLand Down Under

Posted 08 May 2015 - 03:27 AM

OL needs more PK. Very fun stuff trying to stay alive whilst fighting another playing knowing that if you fuck up, you lose your items or if he/she does then you gain a substantial reward.

View Postbutler, on 07 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Nearly everyone in game is friends and doesn't want to fight.
I will fight if I see somebody!

View Postbutler, on 07 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

I mean, nearly everyone doesn't expect you to attack in PK maps.
haha

FYI to all. Only people I dont attack in PK maps (if I ever do see somebody) are either
- Guild members (pretty obvious)
- Close friends
- People who are mixing (usually found at TD flag)

Only exception to this is the mutual agreement of nobody attacking anybody in PK maps during invasions, because if you are found to be doing that..your pretty much called a low-life scrub by the community and nobody wants that reputation...mostly

#19 butler

butler

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1435 posts
  • LocationScotland

Posted 08 May 2015 - 10:38 AM

View PostCoduX, on 08 May 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

OL needs more PK. Very fun stuff trying to stay alive whilst fighting another playing knowing that if you fuck up, you lose your items or if he/she does then you gain a substantial reward.

View Postbutler, on 07 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Nearly everyone in game is friends and doesn't want to fight.
I will fight if I see somebody!

View Postbutler, on 07 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

I mean, nearly everyone doesn't expect you to attack in PK maps.
haha

FYI to all. Only people I dont attack in PK maps (if I ever do see somebody) are either
- Guild members (pretty obvious)
- Close friends
- People who are mixing (usually found at TD flag)

Only exception to this is the mutual agreement of nobody attacking anybody in PK maps during invasions, because if you are found to be doing that..your pretty much called a low-life scrub by the community and nobody wants that reputation...mostly
This is exactly why there is hardly any PK. A lot of people have more exceptions to the rule than those applicable to the rule. A lot of people ingame are friends, and most are a core that's been playing for a long time and all know each other.

You also forgot that, in the quote you got off me, I had "nearly everyone." First word in that quote.

#20 CoduX

CoduX

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1231 posts
  • LocationLand Down Under

Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:17 AM

Oath that BB,
Only way I see PK coming back alive is if OL suddenly gains an influx of new members and they all decide to stay and all level up considerably. We can only dream about such things.

P.S I've just finished a 15 hour shift so I'm in a zombie-state atm so s'cuse any sentences that don't make sense or any off putting wording :D





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: player, killing, pk train, newmap

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users