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#1 CoduX

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 10:30 AM

Ok,

A lot of people have been asking and discussing about the lack of a decent drop when killing uber bosses in invasions. For example, Enola Gay, Giganta, Mother Goose, Irish Lightning. Bosses that take teamwork to kill.
These bosses take like 5-7 people to kill with usually: a tank, 2-4 hitters, ranger or two and a healer if possible.

The amount of resources used on hard bosses like these are excessive and when the drop comes, lo and behold it's a shit drop that doesn't cover anything near what resources such as BR's, spells, armour, weapons and cape if they break.

For example in the invasion just gone, we had a tank (mind you the #1 tank) getting blasted, 3 decent fighters and 2 archers and it still took a mouthful to kill Enola Gay and what was the drop? A measly 8gcK LOOOOOOOOL IN UR FACE U OL SCRUBS!!11!1!!
Seriously, a lot of people who do the invasion bosses are fed up with the lack of a decent drop. I know that I certainly can't be the only one who gets annoyed at this.
It isn't just this boss, most of the major bosses drop next to nothing and the resources used and time and effort is pretty much a waste of time and shows barely anything to compensate it. Think of how many arrows rangers use to kill these and each arrow is 10gc! A short 100 arrows is 1gcK and the gc cost quickly adds up!
And then you think of Giganta...a GIANT boss..that should drop at least something cool like 50K. Instead will drop a serpent stone if your lucky.

So I'm proposing this idea that I hope to turn into a poll to get the UBER BOSS DROPS ONLY changed to something that is more respectable like reasonable gold coin drops, guaranteed items, anything really to make them worth their while!

*Uber bosses drops considered to be changed:
  • Giganta (giant)
  • Enola Gay (hawk)
  • Mother Goose (cockatrice)
  • The Almighty Rabbitman (fluffy rabbit)
*Drops to be changed to:
  • Increased Gold
  • More % to drop (certain item) for (certain mob)
Please express more ideas and/or opinions!

#2 CoduX

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 11:15 AM

Maybe also some insight of the various drops from other bosses if they seemed fair or not?

#3 butler

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 11:50 AM

I think the number one tank can be contested by at least 3 people CoduX ;p But different people have different definitions of best.

Now the problem with Giganta is stopping people like Achilles doing something odd and killing it solo.

On a more general note, one way to help soften the blow would be making it so that things like arrows shot into these bosses *might* be stuck in the corpse at the end, and be retrievable. That would help cover some of the cost. But also, on some of these beasts, it makes no sense having them drop large sums of money. Irish is fine (leprechaun) but several of the others, it's a peculiar thought. However, at the moment, it's probably the only one we can do really. What would be good is unique drops with broad uses which would keep the demand up and command a decent price a piece, but not be excessively over used or end up underused.

That's a very tall order.

I also think that there should be a more careful approach to how much they drop based on how hard they are to kill, balance the thing thoughtfully, rather than shouting that XXX should make you rich if you kill it.

In all honesty, some bosses, like Irish, are piss easy to tank. Each of the bosses, along with their individual rolls should be considered. The question is whether to tie the bosses level rolls to the gc a bit tighter.

#4 sirdan

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 10:52 PM

8k off mother goose. We had like 6 of us on it at least. Warlock was tanking so I just told him to take my share since it probably cost him a lot in materials and i didn't use any. I think a few others did the same.

#5 CoduX

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Posted 19 July 2015 - 11:33 PM

View Postsirdan, on 19 July 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

8k off mother goose. We had like 6 of us on it at least. Warlock was tanking so I just told him to take my share since it probably cost him a lot in materials and i didn't use any. I think a few others did the same.
This is exactly what I am talking about.

@Butler I know that both Ash and yourself are tanks, but who is the third? Also by 'best tank' I was merely going off the person who has 50/50 toughness/reaction and highest defense, so no offense intended.

#6 winter

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 04:40 AM

I don't frequently get involved with the big boss battles (yet) but I have been in a few - mostly as a ranger and healer, but occasionally as fodder.  I usually don't take a share of the drop at all, but even when I have taken a fair share, it doesn't nearly cover the cost in arrows and esses.  The cost to a tank that loses expensive items can easily be higher than mine.
As it stands, to me, the real fun in invasions is taking on the uber bosses in a group.  If I want to profit from an invasion tho, I stand in a big horde of bunnies, with my gatherer med on ;)

#7 Rabbitman

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 10:58 AM

Been away a bit, but I'll chime in here since I don't think anything has changed in boss drops in the last month or two. Currently there are three main styles of bosses in OL, and balancing drops from each one comes with its own unique problems. The types and difficulties are:

Type 1: Balanced for a set CL

This boss type is generally intended to be solo'd by someone about the same CL as the boss. It is a goal for new players to complete, and a challenge for medium players. The problem with these bosses is that players (significantly) above the target CL wipe them out very easily. As far as balancing the drops on this type of boss is concerned, lower/medium players who kill this boss will use many resources, whereas a high level player will use next to none. Learner does not want to make the drops too good, because that will just encourage the high level players to farm these bosses and not leave them as challenges for the lower players. One example of a boss in this type that comes to mind is the armed skeleton boss "Bonehead". New players will get destroyed by him, medium level players can beat him but it is a hard fight. However, once you hit mid 250s CL he becomes very easy. (I expect Troll Night and Gabby are this type for players 95-105 a/d, which is why they seem so hard to most players).

Type 2: Balanced for a team with a higher tank

This boss type is generally intended to be killed with a team, but usually can be solo'd if desired. These bosses have higher hp but still follow the same CL rules as Type 1 (so they are solo-able if the tank wants to spend the time to do it). Balancing drops on this type of boss is not as difficult as type 1, since it is never "easy/fast" for any player to complete. Thus, boss drops could be higher here. Example bosses in this category are: Irish Lighting, The Almighty Rabbitman, Lord LNX, and Mother Goose (? it's been awhile so I am not overly familiar with his CL, he might fit in type 3). As an additional note, bosses that "roll" critical hit rates can be bumped up from type 2 into type 3 (i.e. Mother Goose and The Almighty Rabbitman).

Type 3: Challenge bosses

This boss type is intended to only be killed with great difficulty with a team. Generally, the boss has a CL higher than the maximum capable to be obtained by a player, so no matter what level the players are, it will be just as difficult. Since these bosses will always be difficult to kill, I see no problem with (significantly) increasing the drops on these. Example bosses are: Enola Gay, Giganta, Fluffy Gargle, Cyce (? might be type 1 for high a/d, but I do not think so). As a response to butler about soloing mobs in this category, this has never been a profitable way to kill creatures...I mean iirc I have poofed 3 mirrors and 5 large packs in ~20 gigantas and gotten 2 serp stone drops and no nice cape drops. It has always been more of a pride thing, which I personally don't see as a problem. Developers (Learner) need to decide if they want this to be possible or not.

General Notes:

- Define a separate drop table with nice drops (Learner has already done this)

- Drops from bosses in type 1 seem fairly balanced for what they need to be in my opinion.
- Increase chance for boss mobs in type 1 to get a drop off drop table based on CL.

- Buff gc drops in type 2 (or increase the lower cap on gc)
- Buff gc drops based on CL in type 2 (to compensate for tank getting rekt)
- Much higher chance for drop of drop table (can have a few trol drops such as fast regen cape/power saving cape if Learner feels necessary)

- (Significantly) Buff gc drops for bosses in type 3  by CL (not only by hp)
- Guaranteed drop from drop table with chance for 2 (can have a few trol drops such as fast regen cape/power saving cape if Learner feels necessary)

Note all information just my opinion not official etc etc...

Achilles

#8 Warlock

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 11:04 AM

posted b4 i read achi's

and yeah i think MG is defo in type 3

#9 CoduX

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 11:08 AM

View PostRabbitman, on 20 July 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

General Notes:

- Define a separate drop table with nice drops (Learner has already done this)

- Drops from bosses in type 1 seem fairly balanced for what they need to be in my opinion.
- Increase chance for boss mobs in type 1 to get a drop off drop table based on CL.

- Buff gc drops in type 2 (or increase the lower cap on gc)
- Buff gc drops based on CL in type 2 (to compensate for tank getting rekt)
- Much higher chance for drop of drop table (can have a few trol drops such as fast regen cape/power saving cape if Learner feels necessary)

- (Significantly) Buff gc drops for bosses in type 3  by CL (not only by hp)
- Guaranteed drop from drop table with chance for 2 (can have a few trol drops such as fast regen cape/power saving cape if Learner feels necessary)
This

I didn't know half of that stuff so thanks for elaborating Ach, I feel that Type 1 bosses are fine as well, as they are intended for lower-levelled players.
But I do feel that Type 2 and Type 3 should have their buffed.

Tbh I couldn't of said better..
Only thing now is the decide which certain mobs should get which certain buffs and what are those buffs?

#10 Rabbitman

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 11:49 AM

View PostCoduX, on 20 July 2015 - 11:08 AM, said:

Only thing now is the decide which certain mobs should get which certain buffs and what are those buffs?

Type 2 is difficult to define because they still *can* be solo'd fairly easily ("The Almighty Rabbitman" takes ~20 min to solo but is easily doable if you are high enough). I think the most "fair/easiest" way to define type 2 would be to have a minimum health requirement for a boss to reach this level (maybe even for a normal mob to be bumped up, such as the 25k health normal rabbits we have had before). We could also add a CL limit, but I think this would be more of a band-aid to make high level type 1 bosses more profitable for "low" level players (i.e. make troll night drop more for 90s a/d players now, when he would be easy for capped a/d players).

Defining type 3 is fairly easy imo, as we can just #define a cap on CL which would bump a boss into type 3. I would set this cap to be slightly higher than is possible for a capped character.(Max player CL is ~325 (335 if using pots) with current pp at 105 oa and 105 a/d). With that said, I would place type 3 at ~325 (maybe less since the higher mobs do have higher critical hit chances generally as well).

Achilles

#11 DueCE

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 12:48 PM

Great explanation Achilles.  I definitely vote in favour of increasing type 2 and type 3 boss gc drops. I would even go as far as saying make them also drop cheap but not-so common items too (maybe <5% chance) for low end cloaks (power saving, fr, conjurer's) and enriched essences (EWE, ELE, EME, EDE). Also, maybe for the highest CL of them all (MG, EG, Cyce, Giganta should be here but I guess its CL won't be as high cause he doesn't have much matter) should have a very small chance to drop rare and expensive items (EFE, Serp stone, BP, MM, very small chance for Mirror if it doesn't break in combat, very small chance for WARLOCK's cloak pls this cloak is sexy! camo cloak even!).  After all, a giganta rolled strong with a mirror+serp would be really hard to kill.

Perhaps one way to tone counteract this significant buff to boss drops is to slightly reduce the occurrence of 10k drops (only), though I know a lot of ppl wouldn't want that. This is one way of encouraging people to work together rather than just farming low levelled mobs with an ibh + gatherer as this a really sure way to make money on weekends).

#12 Rabbitman

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 01:03 PM

View PostDueCE, on 20 July 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Also, maybe for the highest CL of them all (MG, EG, Cyce, Giganta should be here but I guess its CL won't be as high cause he doesn't have much matter) should have a very small chance to drop rare and expensive items (EFE, Serp stone, BP, MM, very small chance for Mirror if it doesn't break in combat, very small chance for WARLOCK's cloak pls this cloak is sexy! camo cloak even!).  After all, a giganta rolled strong with a mirror+serp would be really hard to kill.

Boosted health on a boss does not increase its CL. Thus, a boss mob which has not had its attributes/levels buffed has the same CL has the base creature. Giganta still has the highest CL in the game (other than unicorn :P). As far as my definition for type 3 goes, mountain chimerans are ~CL 330 which is above the threshold of players being able to solo without accu/eva/othershenanigans. My rationale for comparing type 3 to mountain chimerans is that I expect they would still be challenging for players 100+ a/d (but I am not that high so I do not know for sure xD). So all bosses that are as hard or harder than an MCW would default to type 3 (but L may have a different opinion on this).

View PostDueCE, on 20 July 2015 - 12:48 PM, said:

Perhaps one way to tone counteract this significant buff to boss drops is to slightly reduce the occurrence of 10k drops (only), though I know a lot of ppl wouldn't want that. This is one way of encouraging people to work together rather than just farming low levelled mobs with an ibh + gatherer as this a really sure way to make money on weekends).

I'm not a big fan of bonus gc drops. I think they increase in-game inflation and should be replaced with items (serpent stones/binding stones/enrichment stones/enriched essences/books, etc). This would lower the amount of gold entering the game and encourage players to trade their dropped items for things they need. The amount of rare invasion drops might need to be adjusted accordingly.

#13 Grimm

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Posted 20 July 2015 - 07:49 PM

View PostCoduX, on 19 July 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

Ok,

A lot of people have been asking and discussing about the lack of a decent drop when killing uber bosses in invasions. For example, Enola Gay, Giganta, Mother Goose, Irish Lightning. Bosses that take teamwork to kill.
These bosses take like 5-7 people to kill with usually: a tank, 2-4 hitters, ranger or two and a healer if possible.

The amount of resources used on hard bosses like these are excessive and when the drop comes, lo and behold it's a shit drop that doesn't cover anything near what resources such as BR's, spells, armour, weapons and cape if they break.

For example in the invasion just gone, we had a tank (mind you the #1 tank) getting blasted, 3 decent fighters and 2 archers and it still took a mouthful to kill Enola Gay and what was the drop? A measly 8gcK LOOOOOOOOL IN UR FACE U OL SCRUBS!!11!1!!
Seriously, a lot of people who do the invasion bosses are fed up with the lack of a decent drop. I know that I certainly can't be the only one who gets annoyed at this.
It isn't just this boss, most of the major bosses drop next to nothing and the resources used and time and effort is pretty much a waste of time and shows barely anything to compensate it. Think of how many arrows rangers use to kill these and each arrow is 10gc! A short 100 arrows is 1gcK and the gc cost quickly adds up!
And then you think of Giganta...a GIANT boss..that should drop at least something cool like 50K. Instead will drop a serpent stone if your lucky.

So I'm proposing this idea that I hope to turn into a poll to get the UBER BOSS DROPS ONLY changed to something that is more respectable like reasonable gold coin drops, guaranteed items, anything really to make them worth their while!

*Uber bosses drops considered to be changed:
  • Giganta (giant)
  • Enola Gay (hawk)
  • Irish Lightning (leprechaun)
  • Mother Goose (cockatrice)
  • Cyclops+ Bosses (bosses that are above cyclops to kill e.g fluff boss, chimeran boss, yeti boss)
  • Troll Night (troll)
  • Gabby (armed goblin)
  • Several hard Ogre Bosses
  • Chucky (giant)
*Drops to be changed to:
  • Increased Gold
  • More % to drop (certain item) for (certain mob)
Please express more ideas and/or opinions!

ok to expand on what people are saying and whats consider uber boss,

I believe uber bos is consider one in which requires teamwork to kill, so drop will definately be shared and needed resources covered, on that note,
  • Irish Lightning (leprechaun) ---- can be solo'd  just takes a while, like achi stated
  • Cyclops+ Bosses (bosses that are above cyclops to kill e.g fluff boss, chimeran boss, yeti boss)  --- cyce is the only questionable one at this time I feel may be consider, Udar has been done by 2 people and cyce may become that way in the future, dcw boss has been solo'd, yeti boss not existant yet, fluff boss, well there are a couple, even almighty i question going beyond stage 2 to uber,  for there is still player progression and may be able to be solo'd in future (probably around time yeti start becomming prominant in game)  no input on fcw bosses, still needs time to evaluate.
  • Troll Night (troll) -- he was killed by 2 people yesterday and heard complaints of being killed to fast w/o waiting for others,  thus nolonger uber.  another example to consider player progression.
  • Gabby (armed goblin) I solo'd him myself other day, I been seeing him solo before I became IM, also usually spawns in CC a single combat map, way too easy for one person to get uber drop especially if he has a low roll.
  • Several hard Ogre Bosses -- not hard for higher end players, can be killed in no time at all, players in which the CL was ment for will also seldomly see these bosses if they had uber drops. creates more easy snipes imo
  • Chucky (giant)--- i seen solo, besides that some even told me he is easier than midgits sometimes
so on that note, I'd stick with mother goose, enola gay, and giganta.  and I'd also say as an IM, for particular bosses to be made as so-called uber class, we should have a poll to do so for each, this way also Learner and the IM's can discuss what we seen and confirm the boss as a canidate for an uber class boss.

due to many factors such as character progression, time to see how bosses are handled in invasions with community, wether it just needs to be reduced if it's on the line or increased to make a little harder to consider it uber, etc.

just my opinion on the matter from what I seen is all

#14 Annraoi

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Posted 22 July 2015 - 12:25 PM

A barely competent mage can solo Cyce.

#15 Learner

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Posted 13 March 2016 - 10:59 AM

The Drop System on Test has been enhanced so that special Boss Drops & Invasion Drops can now be tuned for what items can be dropped based on the monsters CL after buffing. While the drops themselves still need to be updated, this means that more special items can be safely added to high level monsters with more reasonable drop rates then in the past. Before this change the HAD to be kept very rare or the rabbit hoards would have been dropping too good.

#16 Grimm

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 01:53 PM

currently in progress




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