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Add 5 sec rule uniformly to game


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#1 SimAnt

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 05:09 PM

The 5 second rule when entering a new map should apply more uniformly in the game. The 5 second rule is quite commonly used to gauge the safety of an area before staying, due to the possibly of instantly being attacked.

I've been told to either:
1). Throw a noob in first (thats fun, right?)
2). Go Invisible (Lets all become mage class!!)
3). Have a team all go in at once (group suicide, yay!)

I believe the rule should not be dependent on how the mapmaker decided to link their rooms to either the same or different maps; instead it should apply whenever going through a entrance such as a door. I suspect such a change would not require a lot of effort.


Quote

[Learner @ 6]: the rason the delay is there is mostly to stop PK'rs from hanging around the entrances waiting for a player to enter the map
This does not seem to work for me in tg magic school, i am instantly attacked by mobs when entering the pk areas.

Options:
1. Keep things the way they are
2. Implement a delay to be attacked when going through a entrance.

#2 BattleWizard

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 06:02 PM

2.

#3 sirdan

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 08:58 PM

Delay in every entrance.

#4 CoduX

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 08:58 PM

2.
Because the amount of hidden mobs like RPF, midgets etc in rooms and stuff like that you need at least 2-3 seconds to rectify your mistake if they are too hard for you but you were searching for the 'hidden mobs' anyway.
keep PK area's like they are though

#5 BlakKat

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 10:19 PM

I am with simant on this one: it should apply uniformly, not only to map changes. Is just annoying to go somewhere and die out of the blue. While the 5s rule seems generous, in practice there are still plenty of deaths from misclicking the flags/doors etc.

#6 Grimm

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 10:34 PM

1.

It's a feature, very few maps have this, TG magic school and Carmien Manor.  plus these are maps that will fade away.

This is all part of the decision making process map makers make, and may become obsolete with new client.  But is very useful tool for invasions and future events.

Use invisible spell.

View PostSimAnt, on 31 July 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

2). Go Invisible (Lets all become mage class!!)


Does not require mage class!  What you tell a player that can't kill gargoyles but want to farm male orcs for serpent stones? train a/d.  What you tell a player whom wants to make their own body restoration potions?  train potion skill.  What do you tell a ranger that wants to hit a target and not miss as much? train ranging.  So I say train magic, I did, and it's not like you require a nexus or is class specific to use the invisible spell,  or 100+ mana to cast.

Yes death sucks, that's the risk you take.  You get in over your head, don't go back in, and get help to retrieve your death bag, It's what has been done for years now.

You still have factor of mobs being in way of door/flag

Remove option of the few risks, also removes chances of rewards..... think Easter egg hunt my first year.

I hear no complaints when it's Irish Lightning on other side of that door.....

#7 ebattleon

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 10:49 PM

I am with 5 second rule on all maps.

#8 Zian

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Posted 31 July 2016 - 10:51 PM

i don't think a general 5-sec rule should be default for all map entrances, etc...however there could be contributors that could add non-detection ability which would help.

Regards
Zian

#9 SimAnt

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:10 AM

The entire reason that this is an issue is because we do not have a smooth transition between areas where you would be able to "sense" what is ahead. A basic action such as moving through a normal entrance shouldn't be dependent on a players skill set or require them to use resources every time.


View PostGrimm, on 31 July 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

Use invisible spell.
I think i speak for most everyone here, when i say thats ridiculous to expect of us to use invisible spell every time we go through a door.


View PostGrimm, on 31 July 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

It's a feature, very few maps have this, TG magic school and Carmien Manor.  plus these are maps that will fade away.
I don't think it matters how many maps have the issue, also these issues could persist into new maps.  

View PostGrimm, on 31 July 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

Remove option of the few risks, also removes chances of rewards..... think Easter egg hunt my first year.
This seems like a unreasonable risk given to players due to game mechanics.

View PostGrimm, on 31 July 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

I hear no complaints when it's Irish Lightning on other side of that door.....
I'd still complain if i instantly die with no way to react, no matter what boss is in the room.

#10 Learner

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:21 AM

A reminder to players ...

Take the time to think and post about possible alternatives as well as pros and cons. Discussions like this prior to trying to take this to a vote is important.

to clarify some of the EL history, the client has to do a lot more work when you change maps so the rule was implemented to help offset for that. When you don't have to change mapes the client can put you there instantly.

#11 Kiwi06

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 07:38 AM

Just from a role-playing standpoint...I don't think I should be able to be ambushed by monsters that I would have been able to see a mile away. This is why I would vote for a grace period on specific map changes that are outdoors to outdoors. Like, I'd be able to see what's in MM from WS if I was physically standing at the flag, but if I go in and there are mobs there I get ambushed and killed. If they get free invisibility on the other side of the map, so should I ;)

@Grimm, I wouldn't look at this as us arguing that a mechanic should apply everywhere. Technically it is, but many people just want some reassurance that they aren't going to die in a way that doesn't make any sense (I would have SEEN 2k mobs standing on the other side of MM flag).

So either a small grace period (I'd say 3 seconds is enough, actually), or craft some magical way for us to be able to look into the other map (5 feet away) before entering :P

#12 Learner

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 07:51 AM

A map change like from WS to MM already has the grace period. The discussion is about the special cases that are from indoor tp indoor that are both on the same map so be default there is no grace period.

#13 Kiwi06

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 08:11 AM

Ah. Well I'll break out this kick-ass idea I had for that case. The ability to "listen" at a door to see what's on the other side. "You hear a large group on the other side of the door. Probably about 50 creatures!" Higher Perception gives better accuracy ;)

Other than that, no, I don't think we should have the same grace period for opening a door or entering a cave. That's where actual ambushes tend to occur after all ;)

#14 Learner

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 08:50 AM

If listening at the door were to be added, the Perception should help define how far from the door you can hear and it would be a fraction of the Perception or a non-linear curve. I also wouldn't want to ever mention any number either.

But, you still wouldn't be able to tell 5 rabbits from 5 RPF's.

#15 Kiwi06

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 09:54 AM

No but you could tell difference between a few rabbits and a stampede. Which is my main point really. I like the idea for how far in you can hear, but that sounds even more difficult to make.

#16 Learner

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 10:02 AM

View PostKiwi06, on 01 August 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

No but you could tell difference between a few rabbits and a stampede. Which is my main point really. I like the idea for how far in you can hear, but that sounds even more difficult to make.
Correct, and how to handle the general concept would have to be thought out in detail, such as what is 'some monsters' versus 'a lot of monsters'

#17 Grimm

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 01:25 PM

Every map change has a grace period.

Your not talking about many doors.  To use invisible spell or not is your choice.

Not fighting against your concept, just your reason behind it.  So to being able to map hop on every single entrance with a 5 second delay just to ensure your safety, this is what I disagree to.

Yes it peeves me when someone stumbles upon a room above their pay grade, and expects no risks knowing there is no map change cool down and multi combat too.  And all they call for is Immunity option. Falls under same concept of invaded map expected to not be cleared by weekends end but is there solely for the challenge.

FYI: the school was still cleared, except for 1 Troll Night. thus wasn't impossiblle

Now the thought of an object to assist but not grantee your safety or knowing exactly what your walking into, that is more feasible.  But as to see what kind of mobs, if its 10 brown rabbits or 10 rabid fluffys, your still entering the room to see.

10 rabid fluffys in a small room your dead and wait, you still dropped, and still need to retrieve the bag, or get someone to do it for you.  Especially if you chosen risk over cost of safety.  Then you choose to let others know or let them suffer your same fate.

IMO if a room is packed, think if these hungry monsters hear you at the door?  With the force of all of them they should also be able to break down the and enter the next room. LUNCH!! ......   Maybe add that as a phail to listening?

#18 EatsAllLife

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 05:29 PM

We should have a 5 second interval for any map that requires a change that we cannot see, other-wise the insta-deaths and potential losing of our bags doesn't seem fair. Sure it is some extra work, but less complaints in the long run.

#19 GypsyNomad

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 05:33 PM

1 & 3 lol

#20 Rabbitman

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 06:45 PM

All,

I would like to start off with 2 statements on the matter.

1. If there is an ambush and you are careless you should probably die.
2. Invisibility shouldn't be the only way to protect yourself. One of the premises of OL combat was to make it so not all fighters are mages and vice versa.

Personally, I like this idea originally proposed by kiwi and expanded by Learner:

View PostLearner, on 01 August 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

If listening at the door were to be added, the Perception should help define how far from the door you can hear and it would be a fraction of the Perception or a non-linear curve. I also wouldn't want to ever mention any number either.

But, you still wouldn't be able to tell 5 rabbits from 5 RPF's.

If you are careful and use the seeing eye on a door or flag, the server will give you an estimate for how many creatures are near the door with the radius defined by your perception. I think it should give a guess at "small/medium/large" as the size of the creatures as well. From an RP perspective this should only work on caves, doors, flags...but should not work on waypads such as in WS or the magic school maze (I think this is a valid time to say "use invisibility" since it is a magical thing anyway :P). Note: size, not strength, so a rabid fluff and a brown rabbit would both be small, but a male orc may be deemed large!

There is a non-zero amount of time for your actor to transfer locations, and you can be attacked in that time which gives you zero time to respond (especially if the creature can cooldown you). I decided to run an experiment on test server to see how big a deal it was. I went to Carmien Manor and set my screen up so I could click the door going from troll area to fluff area back and forth without moving the mouse. I stood in the troll area and invaded 1400 brown rabbits right next door. I turned on an auto-clicker with 1/100 seconds between clicks to see if my actor would get in and out without being attacked. Alas, my actor was attacked by the rabbit swarm. If it was a swarm of giant midgets and white tigers I would have been rekt, which I think is not great game design. Thus, I think there should be at least 1-2 seconds delay on all doors/cave entrances/waypads.

Ambushes can be an exciting addition to an invasion, but above all a game is supposed to be fun. I think either or both of these changes would overall improve fun for players. Remember, Learner is constantly coming up with new ways for invasions to ambush and kill players anyway!

RM




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