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Add 5 sec rule uniformly to game


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#21 Kiwi06

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Posted 01 August 2016 - 11:55 PM

Zero chance of getting away is a bit crazy imo. But apparently that's what Grimm wants everywhere. There has to be a middle ground here we can agree on.

Also think about lag. When it comes to large groups of mobs I tend to resync and lag even though I have a gaming PC with a top-notch Internet connection and 60 ping. If I enter a room full of mobs with no grace period there is actually a chance that I literally don't get to see what killed me. I'm in the underworld.

Also take into consideration that maps are sometimes crafted very badly without camera angles in mind and I can't even look around or do anything before getting murdered.

Walking through a door and ending up in the underworld is not only frustrating for whiners. It is also bad for newbs, noobs, and people who want to see something reasonable in the game play. If invasions are strictly for pr0s, you'll see more of us afk than active during the weekends. I'm so casual that I typically explain to people that I don't actually play this game, I just logged in to chat.

#22 AlddrA

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Posted 02 August 2016 - 05:58 PM

Agree with having a 2-3 second delay even in same map if going through a door with a room full of mobs.

#23 Kiwi06

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 12:26 AM

Mostly I just think we need a second or two to account for lag and camera turning (and other UI noob) functions. More than that would make it a freebie function for every room similar to the way we completely abuse TD. I don't like the way we abuse TD - it makes no sense. But the grace period is necessary for PK.

#24 BlakKat

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 07:17 AM

I really like the idea of using the eye on doors, especially with the idea of getting somewhat incomplete information in form of learning only about the rough amount, size, weight, and maybe number of legs of the mob, all depending on your perception. Maybe, you should also learn about whether there is already fighting going on inside ...

With respect to flags, I also think you should be able to really see what you will be getting into no matter what. Those flags are just there because it is impractical to have one large map. A similar reasoning holds for boats. When the shore is full of big scary mob, which captain in his/her right mind would land his/her ship on shore? The 5s rule seems appropriate to rectify those issues. Caves entrances or ladders would actually fall for me into a similar category as flags/boats. Note: if you are inattentive or ill prepared, 5s often are too brief of a grace period to escape.

Doors, however, should not fall into the category of flags and I feel there should be a much shorter grace period so that only careful entering will give you chance.

Rings and teleports is a somewhat different matter. One could argue that mob need some reaction time to attack you when somebody just pops up next to them.

I also want to also point out something which has not been brought up so far (at least I believe so): the 5s rule is "abused" for retrieving DBs close to the flag. Honestly, I think this is ok for the following reasons:
1) retrieving a bag near a flag is not without risk, at least for me. It is not uncommon to fail for whatever reason (misclick because of too many mobs, etc) and as a consequence dropping more stuff.
2) the fact that a mob piles up in one map and on the other map it is perfectly safe is not very realistic (for this we have hordes). This makes it often difficult to start clearing a map. Being able to retrieve your bag offsets this.

Finally, there is a way to enter maps safely not using invisibility. It is somewhat awkward, but rather effective: just drop your stuff before you enter and pick it up after a brief visit to UW or if the map was safe enough just switch back. I'd rather have this method not be the norm. Its just annoying... and seems more abusive to me than exploiting the 5s rule to check out maps or retrieve DBs.

#25 Kiwi06

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 07:32 AM

Lmao. The "leave your important stuff on the other side and get it when you come back from the underworld" method is quite amusing, if not ridiculously outside of role-play. But then again...our characters must have figured it out by now...that when we die we can just walk out of hell and go back to our lives. So maybe it works perfectly fine in this crazy ass game world we're living in xD

#26 SimAnt

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 05:15 PM

View PostBlakKat, on 03 August 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Finally, there is a way to enter maps safely not using invisibility. It is somewhat awkward, but rather effective: just drop your stuff before you enter and pick it up after a brief visit to UW or if the map was safe enough just switch back. I'd rather have this method not be the norm. Its just annoying... and seems more abusive to me than exploiting the 5s rule to check out maps or retrieve DBs.
I used to do this, but it is kinda hard now when mobs respawn during the invasion, fighting your way back to where you dropped your bag could take too long. If i really wanted to, then every time i was about to enter a door, I could walk back to storage and get undressed, walk back, enter and potentially die. And decide if i want to equip and go in. I really would prefer not to do this.

#27 Grimm

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Posted 03 August 2016 - 05:39 PM

View PostKiwi06, on 01 August 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

Zero chance of getting away is a bit crazy imo. But apparently that's what Grimm wants everywhere. There has to be a middle ground here we can agree on.


Not true, All I saying is there are very few maps  that were not built with 5 second rule in mind.  Every other map has that feature.

And stated I agree with a way to get a feeling of what might be on the other side.

These maps that have the no 5 second feature are going to be obsolete,  But new maps may make use of this feature in the future.

example, CM, before going from troll hall to next room, there is a spot you can stand and see red dots at the door,  If I were to intentionally make use of this in an actual event like the set up had in magic school, I would want the map with door to allow seeing these red dots while standing next to the door.  

FYI I was testing TG Magic School with features for a possible dungeon, which wouldn't have doors, and be split with individual areas in which mobs can't wander.  More like zones.  ++ if there were doors in one of the events maps, it would be more like a door say at entrance to wsc, which you could see on other side overhead.  TG Magic School was only map currently available in which allowed distance to prevent farming of possible bosses and where bosses happen to spawn.

Sorry I could only work with what we have available.

#28 Grimm

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Posted 06 August 2016 - 10:27 AM

Was informed this week, more maps than my liking on Seridia with no map change going in blindly.

Although when mentioned, they are maps I least like to invade, We seldom invade these maps, and we try to take care if and when invading on those maps.  Yes we all forget sometimes. or do an oops, no one is perfect.  But for the most part, it's the experiences that assist us in this remembrance.

This is another example of where we will need the communities help in reviewing the maps as stages of the new continent comes out.  Please take note of these spots.  So that we can check on the design that's intended.

#29 ohmygod

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 10:59 AM

View PostGrimm, on 03 August 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

View PostKiwi06, on 01 August 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

Zero chance of getting away is a bit crazy imo. But apparently that's what Grimm wants everywhere. There has to be a middle ground here we can agree on.


Not true, All I saying is there are very few maps  that were not built with 5 second rule in mind.  Every other map has that feature.

And stated I agree with a way to get a feeling of what might be on the other side.

These maps that have the no 5 second feature are going to be obsolete,  But new maps may make use of this feature in the future.

example, CM, before going from troll hall to next room, there is a spot you can stand and see red dots at the door,  If I were to intentionally make use of this in an actual event like the set up had in magic school, I would want the map with door to allow seeing these red dots while standing next to the door.  

FYI I was testing TG Magic School with features for a possible dungeon, which wouldn't have doors, and be split with individual areas in which mobs can't wander.  More like zones.  ++ if there were doors in one of the events maps, it would be more like a door say at entrance to wsc, which you could see on other side overhead.  TG Magic School was only map currently available in which allowed distance to prevent farming of possible bosses and where bosses happen to spawn.

Sorry I could only work with what we have available.

View PostGrimm, on 06 August 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Was informed this week, more maps than my liking on Seridia with no map change going in blindly.

Although when mentioned, they are maps I least like to invade, We seldom invade these maps, and we try to take care if and when invading on those maps.  Yes we all forget sometimes. or do an oops, no one is perfect.  But for the most part, it's the experiences that assist us in this remembrance.

This is another example of where we will need the communities help in reviewing the maps as stages of the new continent comes out.  Please take note of these spots.  So that we can check on the design that's intended.

TM4 needs a way to see how many mobs on internal map change before the change, (mini map info dots for the other side of the door/cave arch?) or at least a 2-3 sec CD for any new map. Can this be fixed in any new maps being developed if using that method of map change please?

#30 ohmygod

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Posted 17 April 2019 - 11:11 AM

Edited my above comment

#31 ohmygod

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 02:06 PM

Great work on the TM4 ingame map, it fixed that issue for TM4, however 5second rule is missing on a lot of other maps.

I mention this as today i was at the Red Dragon spawn and insta killed by RD which was standing at the entrance. Please dont brush over this and tell me it is the same map and there should be no CD.... as to me the same map means you can see the things that may kill you, not walk blindly into a different part of the "same map" which is potentially full of bad things.

Another thing we need to standardize is the doors on some buildings rooms - please dont make them only open with a pointy finger...... use door/exit/entry icon on mouse over please!!!!! why is this mechanic being used it is so annoying...

Do we need to do a Poll on these ?


Also, Not sure if this needs its own topic but, I will also add that by not providing basic tab maps for ALL maps (internal/external) my premium death message is USELESS as you cant open the tab map to get the coords to recover bag. ..old school pressing compass is useless as well if you dont have tab maps.

Is this a bug??? it looks tacky staring at a black mini map you cant even see the mob dots on it..

Yes rooms are small in some cases but bag is not always visible until you walk quite close to them and soloing RDs has player running everywhere and not always easy to remember where in the map you were (no tab map

#32 Warlock

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:31 PM

Agree with all of your points

#33 Learner

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 05:17 PM

Keep in mind, the 5 second rule is there only for when you change maps to give the client time to load the new map. When you don't change maps there is no extra delay needed because the client doesn't have to read other files in. You just need to keep that in mind when planning your strategies! This is NOT something that is setable on individual parts of a map or specific maps, it only triggers if you change maps.

It is actually being very consistent!

#34 ohmygod

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Posted Yesterday, 01:41 AM

Quote

When you don't change maps there is no extra delay needed because the client doesn't have to read other files in.
There is a delay needed for human aspect of teh game and to give a player a chance to react to this sudden change in circumstances at the blink of an eye..."Skip! speeding up,,," messages do not help this for some players. and not all players have 3-4ms server times.

Quote

You just need to keep that in mind when planning your strategies!
Invis when changing rooms? not all players have the levels to do this, not sure what strategy other than this you may mean.

Quote

This is NOT something that is setable on individual parts of a map or specific maps, it only triggers if you change maps.
Coding or map design issue do you mean? Sounds like the solution to "fix" a map change i delay issue has caused another issue to creep in.


PS...these new maps/insides are bloody awesome and  besides the doors and the no CD thing i am mentioning i have been very impressed every time i discover a new section/area...Just so you understand where im coming from.

#35 Learner

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Posted Yesterday, 03:34 AM

My point is that the 5 sec rule is being applied consistently by the server. It's not about a rule being missing! Unless Z feels he wants to change how those maps are made it's not something that is broken or a bug,

Think about in real life when you open a door and enter a room it does take a moment for you to realize the situation in the room and you are a sitting duck for anyone in the room that sees you enter. Plus, with how the game mechanics work if the RD is walking past it may take it several seconds for it to notice you as well, while in other case it may notice you right away.

#36 Learner

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Posted Yesterday, 03:41 AM

Ref doors, if Z places 3D doors on the clickable 'doors' you can automatically get the door icon and click from any angle (instead of it vanishing from the 'backside', at the risk your view maybe blocke by the door (depending on the camera angle & position). But, that also improves you're chances to 'escape'.

#37 ohmygod

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Posted Yesterday, 05:18 AM

k.

I forgot to list the absence of tab maps as well in my last post in the PS bit..

#38 Zian

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Posted Yesterday, 08:53 AM

View PostLearner, on 16 August 2019 - 03:41 AM, said:

Ref doors, if Z places 3D doors on the clickable 'doors' you can automatically get the door icon and click from any angle (instead of it vanishing from the 'backside', at the risk your view maybe blocke by the door (depending on the camera angle & position). But, that also improves you're chances to 'escape'.

The issue has been brought up a few times in the past. I'm not going to look up those previous posts cuz I'm too lazy. :)

This issue is NOT a map design bug, it relates to how the client's mouse cursor mechanics work when placed over 3D models. Let's look at these mechanics in more detail.

1. Mouse cursor is set to 'walking', 'sitting', 'trade' (two hands) or 'attack' (sword):

Placing the mouse cursor over ANY building (surface such as roof, walls, etc), will automatically change it to the 'door' icon.

Clicking the mouse button at this point will teleport the player to an inside model, if there is one. Notice that you don't need to rotate the outside building trying to locate a clickable '3D door'.

When inside, the mouse cursor icon will NOT automatically change to the 'door' when its placed over any of the building's surfaces as it did when placed over the outside building.

2. Mouse cursor is set to the 'use' (hand-finger) or 'use with' (hand-fist):

Placing the mouse cursor over ANY building surface, the mouse cursor does NOT change to the 'door' icon automatically.

HOWEVER, clicking the mouse button at this point will teleport the player to an inside model, if there is one. Notice no need for the 'door' icon to appear and again you don't need to rotate the building trying to locate a clickable '3D door'.

When inside, click the same 'use' or 'use with' icon on ANY inside surface DOES teleport the player back to the outside.

My recommendation is for players wishing to enter/exit buildings without having to 'search' for clickable doors use mouse cursor settings as stated in item 2 above.

Asking map designers to add 3D doors to ALL interior/exterior buildings just to 'force' (bandaid) the mouse cursor to a 'door' doesnt make sense to me. Adding 3D doors over existing doors display in the models will look very 'odd' and potential confusion. Prompting players to react 'why are there two doors?'

Currently, some building interior lack a door therefore relying on the map designer to ADD 3D doors to make up for these short comings.

To address this issue long term may require changes to the mechnaics of the OL client rather than using bandaids.

Comments?

Regards
Z

#39 Learner

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Posted Yesterday, 09:18 AM

View PostZian, on 16 August 2019 - 08:53 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 16 August 2019 - 03:41 AM, said:

Ref doors, if Z places 3D doors on the clickable 'doors' you can automatically get the door icon and click from any angle (instead of it vanishing from the 'backside', at the risk your view maybe blocke by the door (depending on the camera angle & position). But, that also improves you're chances to 'escape'.

The issue has been brought up a few times in the past. I'm not going to look up those previous posts cuz I'm too lazy. Posted Image

This issue is NOT a map design bug, it relates to how the client's mouse cursor mechanics work when placed over 3D models. Let's look at these mechanics in more detail.

1. Mouse cursor is set to 'walking', 'sitting', 'trade' (two hands) or 'attack' (sword):

Placing the mouse cursor over ANY building (surface such as roof, walls, etc), will automatically change it to the 'door' icon.

Clicking the mouse button at this point will teleport the player to an inside model, if there is one. Notice that you don't need to rotate the outside building trying to locate a clickable '3D door'.

When inside, the mouse cursor icon will NOT automatically change to the 'door' when its placed over any of the building's surfaces as it did when placed over the outside building.

2. Mouse cursor is set to the 'use' (hand-finger) or 'use with' (hand-fist):

Placing the mouse cursor over ANY building surface, the mouse cursor does NOT change to the 'door' icon automatically.

HOWEVER, clicking the mouse button at this point will teleport the player to an inside model, if there is one. Notice no need for the 'door' icon to appear and again you don't need to rotate the building trying to locate a clickable '3D door'.

When inside, click the same 'use' or 'use with' icon on ANY inside surface DOES teleport the player back to the outside.

My recommendation is for players wishing to enter/exit buildings without having to 'search' for clickable doors use mouse cursor settings as stated in item 2 above.

Asking map designers to add 3D doors to ALL interior/exterior buildings just to 'force' (bandaid) the mouse cursor to a 'door' doesnt make sense to me. Adding 3D doors over existing doors display in the models will look very 'odd' and potential confusion. Prompting players to react 'why are there two doors?'

Currently, some building interior lack a door therefore relying on the map designer to ADD 3D doors to make up for these short comings.

To address this issue long term may require changes to the mechnaics of the OL client rather than using bandaids.

Comments?

Regards
Z
My comment for adding 3D doors isn't just about the mouse course, it's also about the 2D Wall vanishing and player having to rotate the camera before they can even click on anything. It's also about the fact the using the 2D wall makes the entire wall something to click on since the door is part of the wall.




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