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#21 Learner

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 07:47 AM

View PostMixi, on 16 April 2017 - 11:47 PM, said:

Thank you for your extensive response which provides some insight into how these things work.

View PostLearner, on 16 April 2017 - 10:46 AM, said:

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It's actually a lot more complicated then you make it sound.

GIWS can't give any reliable warning because between the time of the warning things can change that can prevent the spawning. It also wouldn't have any idea of where either since what & where is determined during the spawning. You could even get multiple warnings, sometimes in a short period, since not all respawning would happen at the same time. GIWS invas are controlled by GIWS hard coded in the server and the only thing that can prevent the next wave is all the mobs being killed. The best that GIWS could do at this time is tell you when it's happened (and only for the long term autospawning), and then it might be spammier then you expect.
My suggestion is more like:
Before respawning is initiated a two-minute warning and one-minute warning are given. Just an "autospawning in DL will start (in one/two minutes)" and then no more messages for a certain interval, which would need to be adjusted to the interval for autospawning. No specifics, other than possibly continent.
GIWS wouldn't know if it was Serdia, DL, or a mix of both. It wouldn't even know for sure if it would spawn or not. It's simply at intervals when it comes time and criteria are met at that time a running Invasion can respawn. That also means if no high level mobs are being killed it will respawn little or no high level mobs. If only low level mobs are being killed if they are for an autorespawn invasion, then they can respawn, possibly on a new map.

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As for you're IF, there are issues there as well. First of all, it may invade a low level mob on a map with high level and then you stumble into that arrangement later. It's also very sensitive to the order of processing & timing since the long term autospawning currently happens based on the timing and order that they were started in. That means that it could easily try to respawn either the easy or the hard stiff first, affecting the other spawns, and could even change from one to the next.

To be more proper, the IF should trying to track what sorts of mobs had been there, not just what is there currently since since they might be residue from a different invasion (that may or may not be respawning). A restriction like this could prevent the auto invasion from being able to invade at all if there is enough other strays which is bad in a different way.
I did indeed not think about low level mobs being added to a high level, but just found that the only maps with mobs appropriate for low levels had (ultra) high levels on it, making them inaccessible to me.
I think that the logic behind the spawning can be made more sophisticated to not only cater to the high level players, which all had gone to sleep when I came on, but also to people logging in later.
While the idea behind autoinvasions, providing fun for players without IM pressence, is good, I hope that the mechanism can be made better to provide fun for a less select group of players.
There are more plans for better long term solutions which also include multiple waves of mobs which can be made even smarter. Just at this time this is what we have available.

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Also, you are assuming that everytime there are skellies etc, it is intended just for lower level players. There are times even with normal invas that a wide range of mobs on purpose. Heck, one common one has spiders & other things centered aroung Giganta in TD. Another example is that TML4, AD & MG were spawned that way on purpose. TML4 isn't even included in any automated spawns and AD/MG was invaded very tough on purpose (there are no rabid fluffy's in any autorespawn). You're lumping everything together you don't like for yourself personally into one concept mentally here.
I resent the implication that I am being selfish here. Since I started playing OL again I have been trying to help with improving the game. I do bring an eternal n00b perspective, not the pro one of players that have been here for years. This sometime means I don't know exactly how things work.

I am not lumping together what I dont like, I am coming on in the morning to find a situation that:
- the maps with monsters on them dont have any players working on them, they are MC and require a team to clear, which did not happen till 12 hours or so later.
- the only places where I could go fight (and anyone else below 60 a/d) have high level mobs on them, this is not just for me, but includes anyone who wants or has started the game in the past month. If you want new players, they need a place to go and have fun too! Skellies are below my level, but the only possible mobs.
- clearing low level mobs (I did clear two maps) did not initiate a respawn of those mobs, leaving only a map with armed orcs, which are still too high for me
- the information about what is where gets lost during the Euro night, unless an IM posts some info

Right now OL is
- not welcoming to new players (till they join a guild that takes care of them)
- not welcoming to early morning Euro players (till SAW logs on and does her awesome stuff)
- not welcoming to people who only have time on the weekend and have a different playstyle from leveling fighting.
- therefor promoting a US-timezone centered monoculture

In my opinion, if OL wants to grow, that needs to change, hence my suggestions.
If the current situation is as is desired, then feel free to ignore my comments.
Some of the missing information can be found at time via WebAccess since that has up to 8 hours worth of information. Even without Premium you can even login and see longer term history in @1 & @6 as well as the InGame messages. #recent & #recent<channel> can only help for stuff from the last hour.

While it may not be intentional, you have been coming off sounding like that.

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There are other long term plans that will be better (including multiple waves for in invasio), but for now these long running autorespawns are intended to help when IM's can't be around to start a new wave. Otherwise you end up with all the invas gone before midnight server time and nothing for 5 more hours.

The last server update did give SAWolf & Grimm the ability to stop the respawning when they are ready to take over again.

There's more I can say on this, but enough for now.
Thanks for the information. I did end up having some fun later.
SAW did an awesome invasion by hand, and also took care of lower level players coming on after that.
I also really enjoyed helping with the Easter bunny :D
Posted Image
I hope the picture shows, it is also in my ency dropbox folder


#22 Mixi

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:50 AM

View PostLearner, on 17 April 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

...
Some of the missing information can be found at time via WebAccess since that has up to 8 hours worth of information. Even without Premium you can even login and see longer term history in @1 & @6 as well as the InGame messages. #recent & #recent<channel> can only help for stuff from the last hour.
...
I always check on webaccess and am usually logged in there. Only IM and market info is available w/o premium account, which at this point I do not have.
The 1 hour #recent info in-game is real handy, but early Euro time the channel typically has been dead for longer than that, or is totally uninformative.

#23 Learner

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 09:58 AM

View PostMixi, on 17 April 2017 - 09:50 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 17 April 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

...
Some of the missing information can be found at time via WebAccess since that has up to 8 hours worth of information. Even without Premium you can even login and see longer term history in @1 & @6 as well as the InGame messages. #recent & #recent<channel> can only help for stuff from the last hour.
...
I always check on webaccess and am usually logged in there. Only IM and market info is available w/o premium account, which at this point I do not have.
The 1 hour #recent info in-game is real handy, but early Euro time the channel typically has been dead for longer than that, or is totally uninformative.
Yes, sorry I miss-remembered on the WebAccess. Yes, that does require premium.

#24 Bat17

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 02:17 PM

But surely you do not need to actually need to use GIWS warning system to issue the warning, just issue it in the same format but triggered by what ever triggers the spawn.

#25 Learner

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 02:50 PM

View PostBat17, on 17 April 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

But surely you do not need to actually need to use GIWS warning system to issue the warning, just issue it in the same format but triggered by what ever triggers the spawn.
It's not if GIWS or something else gives a warning, it's trying to do it before it happens which is hard because things can change between the warning that the spawning, or something can stop the respawning. There is no guarantee that in N minutes a specific invasion will be able to respawn!

#26 Mixi

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 03:49 PM

View PostLearner, on 17 April 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

View PostBat17, on 17 April 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

But surely you do not need to actually need to use GIWS warning system to issue the warning, just issue it in the same format but triggered by what ever triggers the spawn.
It's not if GIWS or something else gives a warning, it's trying to do it before it happens which is hard because things can change between the warning that the spawning, or something can stop the respawning. There is no guarantee that in N minutes a specific invasion will be able to respawn!
Is it then possible, once the decision has been made to respawn, to delay the respawn by 2 minutes and first issue a warning?

#27 Learner

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Posted 17 April 2017 - 03:54 PM

View PostMixi, on 17 April 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

View PostLearner, on 17 April 2017 - 02:50 PM, said:

View PostBat17, on 17 April 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

But surely you do not need to actually need to use GIWS warning system to issue the warning, just issue it in the same format but triggered by what ever triggers the spawn.
It's not if GIWS or something else gives a warning, it's trying to do it before it happens which is hard because things can change between the warning that the spawning, or something can stop the respawning. There is no guarantee that in N minutes a specific invasion will be able to respawn!
Is it then possible, once the decision has been made to respawn, to delay the respawn by 2 minutes and first issue a warning?
I've considered that, but things could still change between the warning and the spawning that could still prevent the spawning, or if it gets force, it could cause spawn when it shouldn't. Wish additional work it may be possible to reduce these risks, but I'm trying to stay more focused on the Perks at this time then a revamp here right now.

#28 WaterBottle

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 09:08 AM

Now I'm interested from my slowly growing programmer perspective. It may be due to my lack of game development experience (and it is definitely due to my lack of experience in the EL/OL code base), but I am wondering why there are so many variables that complicates a warning system. (Not wondering as in being passively aggressive judgmental, but more of a student wondering the finer details of a concept.)

Right now, I am working under the simplistic (and most likely wrong) assumption that the autospawning system is triggered/based on when the mob count reaches a certain number or percentage left, which is also broken down within different level range of mobs (certain #/% left of CL < 100 mobs as an example). The upper limit of mobs could be a max total or max allowed within a level range at one time. You could also be monitoring the CL of players online and adjusting the upper and lower limits either every certain amount of minutes or when a new spawn is triggered (either case could produce triggers and the latter could occur due to a false trigger because the CL of players now changed the limits such that the count is now within range of).

tl;dr The system I assume is mimicking what a human IM would do if he/she were monitoring the invasion in real time.

Since this probably just concerns me, you don't have to respond here. And you're probably busy with the perk system in whatever free time you have to be bothered with one person's interest :P

#29 Learner

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Posted 18 April 2017 - 09:37 AM

View PostWaterBottle, on 18 April 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

Now I'm interested from my slowly growing programmer perspective. It may be due to my lack of game development experience (and it is definitely due to my lack of experience in the EL/OL code base), but I am wondering why there are so many variables that complicates a warning system. (Not wondering as in being passively aggressive judgmental, but more of a student wondering the finer details of a concept.)

Right now, I am working under the simplistic (and most likely wrong) assumption that the autospawning system is triggered/based on when the mob count reaches a certain number or percentage left, which is also broken down within different level range of mobs (certain #/% left of CL < 100 mobs as an example). The upper limit of mobs could be a max total or max allowed within a level range at one time. You could also be monitoring the CL of players online and adjusting the upper and lower limits either every certain amount of minutes or when a new spawn is triggered (either case could produce triggers and the latter could occur due to a false trigger because the CL of players now changed the limits such that the count is now within range of).

tl;dr The system I assume is mimicking what a human IM would do if he/she were monitoring the invasion in real time.

Since this probably just concerns me, you don't have to respond here. And you're probably busy with the perk system in whatever free time you have to be bothered with one person's interest :P
First of all, the IM's can create or change the settings on the invasions on the fly at anytime, and even disable the autospawning. Secondly, there is a % chance to spawn (that so far isn't used with the long running invasions) that is used to mix things up a little bit more. Third there is a time limit, which means if the spawn is trying to take place at the limit, the exact timing could make it spawn or not (rare edge case). Fourth, there is a random 'noise' factor on desired qty combined with the players in game & in map that can cause additional mobs to spawn sometimes. Fifth, IF the other suggested changes were added to limit stuff getting combined, at the time the spawn is taking place, there is the risk of no possible maps that they could spawn in because other things going on.

Might be others, but those stick out in my mind. There are additional factors that can cause a low level spawn to sometimes trigger yet another spawn of higher level for a one time deal, but if there was a warning for the first, it would probably cover this extra one.

#30 WaterBottle

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 09:50 AM

I can start to understand why it'll be complicated to implement a warning system. And apologies ahead of time if some of my questions are dumb or worded abnormally; still learning

View PostLearner, on 18 April 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

First of all, the IM's can create or change the settings on the invasions on the fly at anytime, and even disable the autospawning.
Right, humans always breaking software and code :P

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Secondly, there is a % chance to spawn (that so far isn't used with the long running invasions) that is used to mix things up a little bit more.
Is that setting that an IM can tweak, or is it determined dynamically in the code from various factors and can just be enabled/disabled? Also leads into a bigger question of is that % for any map* to autospawn, or does each map have its own %?

*Sounds like an IM can control which maps are part of the autospawning, so 'any map' refers to any map that's flagged as part of the autospawning

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Third there is a time limit, which means if the spawn is trying to take place at the limit, the exact timing could make it spawn or not (rare edge case)
So a time limit for us to clear mobs to trigger an autospawn event? (which I would then assume that time can be updated/tweaked to help cover until an IM can be actively available).

An example of what I picture is that autospawning is active for X amount of hours, and then an IM can disable the time limit at any time (assumed from first factor) if they want to manually invade or they could update the time before they leave. The time limit then starts from when that setting was last touched/updated?


The fourth factor is self-explanatory and I think helps with keeping players from trying to predict the autospawn system (such as I try to do), or get bored if it's the same chain of events over and over, and the fifth is clearer now given the more detailed explanation.

How does the system determines what to spawn at a given time? We know IMs have developed pre-configured hordes over time so I would guess each gets broken down into pools of level ranges to spawn from, then one is chosen at random once it is known what level range of mobs is desired. Whether it's all possible hordes or if an IM can select which ones to choose from, could be a setting as well in my mind.

#31 Learner

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 10:06 AM

Certain hordes are set as autospawning and then are enabled/invaded. Each horde has it's own % chance, times etc. Each of these special hordes is configured as to what possible maps & locations it might spawn at. There server itself doesn't initiate and new spawning, but instead is permitted to respawn the active hordes given the criteria defined for each horde. We have 6 or 7 predefined hordes from weak to very strong currently setup for long term respawning like this, of which we normally only do 2 - 3 at a time when we don't expect an IM to be around for a while. It's common to do something that's low and a medium-high, or low/medium/strong to help provide a range of mobs. Once it has determined a horde needs to be respawned and how many mobs to try to add, at that time is when one of the predifined locations for that horde is selected from (which includes selecting the map).

The time limit is for how long a horde is permitted to respawn, and then there is an interval set at which it tries to do more spawning. This interval for the autospawning hordes is much higher then normal invas or spawns so you have a chance to greatly reduce or remove the existing mobs before it respawns.

Even when these hordes are spawning, IM's can still invade other things as well if they wish. Any setting except the individual possible spawn points for any horde can be adjusted by an IM at any time, just some changes won't take effect until that horde gets spawned.

#32 Learner

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Posted 19 April 2017 - 10:50 AM

PS What most people are calling autospawning is actually just respawning for those special hordes that are active. Am 'autospawning horder' just happens to be a combination of specific setting:
* Enabled
* Respawn for a long time
* Long respawn interval
* All mobs respawn at one point chosen at random from it's possible list
* Respawn even if the invasion was wiped out.

Along with other settings. It's the last two that have been made available recently to any invasion which when combined with the other settings give the actions you are seeing. Normally for invasions the respawn time & intercals are either disabled or short, and if you wipe out the horde it won't respawn.




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