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Possible change to Kill Bonus?


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#21 Learner

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 01:09 PM

View PostDueCE, on 11 July 2018 - 01:05 PM, said:

The proposed change is a great use of the KillPoints system and is especially beneficial for mages/Rangers.  Seems like a step in the right direction.  

What sort of discussion is needed in order to get this onto the test server?
It's also a question of Priority and if people understand as well as being interested. There is a side of there are other reasonable adjustment which may help?

I do think all the data needed is being gathered now due to updates made to DamageTracker in the last several months. So it's mostly about adding the code to split up the A & D bonuses to A/D/R/M with a side of thinking more about how the total bonus is calculated (since the old math can't apply for a group easily)

P.S. I do NOT expect this to help healers, thats a much more complicated issue at this time without a Party System . Even then have to watch for possible abuses.

#22 ohmygod

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 04:26 AM

Question:

I create a build that has no dexterity/might (well 4), high reaction/toughness, decent rationality, etherallity and matter (the required number of nex to wear plate and carry enough hold my ess and pots with the help of my packs.).

I have enough dodge due to my def+reaction and toughness to "tank/hold" a high level mob kinda easily(?) (An Mchim/rabid fluffy lets say without dying in the first few landed blows at least) and can restore my health as required with magic and pots. however, when not in a team situation I cant hit those mobs due to no dex so need to harm/LD/poison them to death, all the while draining their mana to replenish mine to a certain point depending on their available mana pool of course or burning through my potions.

The mob eventually dies due to a combination of harm/ld/poison spells and a no lucky hits.

What skills xp will i get if i dissed?

What skills xp will i get if i didnt have to diss?

EDITED:

Quote

3. Players that did any Melee Damage at all get their share as Attack exp, even if they also did Ranging or Magic damage as well.

Never mind, I reread the starter post.

Considering the number of spells cast in this situation I think it would be sucky to get the kill bonus only as attack xp just because i got one "lucky" hit in. That said without knowledge of the coding required to split this between attack skill and magic skill.

Also how does Mirror damage get recorded?

#23 Learner

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 06:17 AM

You do still get the Magic exp for any spells that are caste as you normally do as well as normal Ranging exp as well. In the situation you describe you might still get lucky and get a crit hit in or not. That would end up being a deciding factor of the Attack Bonus ends up going to Melee or Magic since the system know what categories caused damage, but not now much damage from each category nor does the mobs healing know how to be applied across different categories or different timings from those.

If you got  a lucky hit in that caused damage, therm it would see you as Melee Attack + Magic. If you got no Crit Hits that did any damage, it would see all the damage you dealt as Magic only.

The decision if you get bonus going towards Attack vs Magic is simply based on if any Melee attacks caused damage, not if you were in Melee or not. This is a compromise between the amount of data having to be tracked against all players and mobs for every round of Melee, Ranging, Magic, and Healing since the Damage Tracker data is also used to gather information for the Event Tracker anytime a mob or player dies all players & mobs are having this information processed at all times.

Mirrored attacks are are considered Melee attacks from themselves since at the time damage is being applied after being mirrored both the attacker & defender are the same person. Since the damage is self inflicted, thats what already prevents you from getting A/D exp from a mirrored attack. The proposed change would have to ignore self inflicted damage of any type to avoid possible abuses from Mirror, mushroom poisoning, and anything else that might come up in the future.

Possibly in the future we'll be able to better evaluate the amount of data and time required to add another level of detail based on each source type.

#24 Jandor

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 01:16 PM

Definitely a step in the right direction.

#25 ohmygod

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 03:35 AM

Just thought i would post some observations since I have been training magic in OL , and even recently solo cleared a dchim and above horde filled map with just spells because i could  Posted Image

I note:
1. Using melee skills is a lot quicker to clear maps of mobs and it also earns you shit loads more xp + bonus xp than if you clear same map/mobs mainly using spells (with no current bonus xp awarded for the kill).
2. Due to the need to stay out of direct combat, or risk getting owned, loot bags are lost in the horde when the mob wanders off to die after being poisoned, so a free tip, dont practice magic if you are after the lootz when clearing hordes. (yes invis spell to retrieve bags if desperate for the lootz,but cost to gain?)
3. Dont need high Magic skill level to kill high(ish) level mobs, although it helps to speed things along. eg i can kill at 55+ magic with a few spell casts and a lot of patience, mobs an 85+ melee would have trouble dealing with.
4. Melee can only do damage on one mob at a time, poison works independently on as many mobs as you can tag with it.
5 Melee - more time in combat the more(?) damage inflicted = potentially more risk of dying when fighting mobs above their CL, Magic damage (poison) ticks regardless of if  mob is in combat or not, = cast and get out of combat quick = potentially caster has less risk of dying to a mob above their CL. (unless they are stupid)

From my observations in  game, I have a few comments to make  about bonus xp and magic.

I like the idea of a bonus xp for a magic damage kill..... however, I think magic bonus for a mob kill should only apply if player in sight of the  mob when it dies, if this is not agreeable then, magic  xp bonus needs to be a small fraction of what a similar level solo melee player would get for the same kill/mob due to the potentially low risk incurred for the magic kill. I say that because as mentioned, i have cleared maps with magic spells and being in direct combat for longer than necessary is bad and should be avoided at all costs, and i say it again, unless you are stupid of course, Flee diss/tele is a magic users friend.

Hmmmmm, How might i ab"use" the magic bonus system if no thought is put into how the bonus xp is awarded?
Everyone knows that when changing maps there is a short delay for when a mob will attack. That said, I have found that I can  flag hop between maps cast poison spell at nearest mob/s, flag out again rinse and repeat for as long as i have ess/potions/time, With no real risk other than spilling my beer when a mob covers the exit flag and the no attack time period is up.

After poisoning as many as possible, if i dont need to be on the same map or in close proximity when they die, then all i need to do is sit back and wait for them to reach zero health bar in safety of a clear map (zero health due to poison damage or because someone else finished it off)..  Tick tick tick boooom bonus magic xp !!!!

*yes reapplying poison spell takes time in order to damage/kill each mob on the map, but is not too hard and works especially best when boss/es hangs around flags and you have nothing better to do with your life......

The potential for ab"use" of bonus  xp when working in a team still needs further investigating and I have some thoughts about how i could make this a nice xp earner for leveling magic in this scenario as well.

my 2 cents



omg

#26 Learner

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 04:46 AM

To combine some of your comments so others can think about it ... the method of map hopping + Poisoning also gives up the mob drops most of the time. So you might be trading some good drops for the xp unless you manage to clear enough before bags start poofing.?

Alternatively, doing an attack type spell like Poison maybe should remove map hop immunity for better balance?

#27 ohmygod

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 07:39 AM

Quote

Alternatively, doing an attack type spell like Poison maybe should remove map hop immunity for better balance?
I have mentioned that flee/diss/disstele is a magic users friend. Instant death possibly if map hop immunity is removed with offensive spell cast especially in a solo situation as the mob will lock player into melee combat and allow the others to join in before you can blink. The other downside i can see might be that the solo magic user never gets the magic xp they want because they have melee hit the mob and the server awards att xp instead.

I do also envision this would not be so bad in a team situation as melee players will most likely have most mobs locked in combat at the flag and magic user  can poison at will with little risk of server converting it to att xp. My question though, is do we have enough players to turn all game play into team play?

Personally, as i tend to solo play a lot, I like the map hop immunity and I would prefer to see the player lose the bonus xp if not in same map when the mob died, rather than not being able to deal real damage and contribute to the clearing of the map at the very start when mobs are thickest even if not in a team. That is just me though...

As to your first comment about trading of bag for xp, you dont need to flag hop to lose the bag, you can be in the middle of the map and the same thing can happen when the mob walks back into the thinned but hovering horde ball. Gatherer does not work if not in melee combat with the mob when it dies. In this case the trade off is more that you dont have to remain in melee combat to kill the mob but you could lose the bag. Giving trade off xp for losing bag because player left the map to sit at storage might be overkill? but hey im easy, really, xp is xp and i like the green numbers that float above my characters head and can go either way with this.

#28 Learner

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 08:59 AM

Part of the reason that I feel the KillBonus should be distributed to players not on the map but still logged in has to do with the walk back from UW and I feel that should apply to all skills equally.

#29 Coffee

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 12:31 PM

I totally agree that the kill bonus would be nice shared. It's really nice getting help killing stuff that's tough f.ex. in RTG etc but sometimes that means that the helper is getting the final blow. I am not too concerned about this as you get the RTG bonus for finishing maps and it's all good and fun, but sharing the bonus would really improve the feel of it for sure, at least imho. I hope to see this change happen as I think it is a really good one for this game.

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#30 Learner

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 07:24 PM

View PostCoffee, on 26 October 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

I totally agree that the kill bonus would be nice shared. It's really nice getting help killing stuff that's tough f.ex. in RTG etc but sometimes that means that the helper is getting the final blow. I am not too concerned about this as you get the RTG bonus for finishing maps and it's all good and fun, but sharing the bonus would really improve the feel of it for sure, at least imho. I hope to see this change happen as I think it is a really good one for this game.

Coffee
It's not just about sharing ... it's also about giving out exp that would be lost if the kill wasn't from combat either (like ranging, magic, or poison).

#31 Coffee

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Posted 03 November 2018 - 08:31 PM

View PostLearner, on 26 October 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

View PostCoffee, on 26 October 2018 - 12:31 PM, said:

I totally agree that the kill bonus would be nice shared. It's really nice getting help killing stuff that's tough f.ex. in RTG etc but sometimes that means that the helper is getting the final blow. I am not too concerned about this as you get the RTG bonus for finishing maps and it's all good and fun, but sharing the bonus would really improve the feel of it for sure, at least imho. I hope to see this change happen as I think it is a really good one for this game.

Coffee
It's not just about sharing ... it's also about giving out exp that would be lost if the kill wasn't from combat either (like ranging, magic, or poison).

Ah yeah true. Getting bonus/xp for killing anything regardless what dealt the killing blow would make sense to me, sharing it and whatnot :)

#32 ohmygod

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 07:44 AM

Thinking about the xp awarded as bonus xp.

What is the calculations used to determine the melee bonus kill xp at the moment? I ask as this is what a/d player get already and want to have a look so can think about how xp might be awarded for the other non-locked into combat skills. Without sounding too silly.

#33 ohmygod

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 07:08 AM

Ok gave up waiting for some info on this. So..

In game now, Normal mob solo bonus xp for Melee - Melee player gets a bonus for a mob kill based on their a/d vs Mob a/d x something else (too slack to look at the exp numbers i get for my toons and work that bit out at the moment). As the player levels and kills the same mob diminishing returns start to kick in for each level in a/d they gain when fighting the same mob = less exp per kill.

Another effect of diminishing returns is that at low-mid levels you get decent xp per hour but when you start to get to higher levels your xp per hour starts to drop dramatically. The hard cap is even harder to get to for a/d as you get awarded less xp per kill/blow/dodge.

Hard cap for OA is a different kettle of fish as it is actually the combined xp of all your leveled skills. So I dont look at this as a guide to how "easy" it may be to level to 105, even then ,we are some many many years in to this game, and I believe we may have only now 2-3 people close to gaining level 100 OA in the game if one those has not already.

These diminishing returns in xp is a good thing, as at the higher levels, even though the exp numbers between levels is very high, the a/d range between players is not that much and a pot of some sort might even get them past a non potted higher ranked players a/d. Rambling a bit now, I think you get what ii am saying, if not say so and i will try explain my thoughts in another way about this point.

So if fighters are reined in by the diminishing returns vs mobs then it goes to say that Mages and Rangers need to be limited by it as well or they will gain xp to fast for too long with the advent of bonus exp being awarded to those skills.

If this was implemented, then I suggest that bonus xp for ranging and magic could then be set the same as what an a/d player would get at the same level for that particular mob. So a level 20 mage/ranger would get the same bonus kill xp (given as magic or range xp) as a level 20 melee player gets as attack exp. All combat skills will then at higher levels take longer to gain another level when killing the same mob.

Another major problem that i can see apart from magic and ranging having no diminishing return penalty vs mobs, is that a level 20 melee fighter has to spend pick points in Dexterity to be able to hit higher level mobs with a sword or other weapon/fist/foot (i am not including might only to hit caculations) whereas a mage can hit with a spell any level mob as long as it didn't fail at casting/spell selection stage, and  ranger is the same they are able to hit higher level mobs at level 20 that the level 20 melee player even with full dex would have trouble hitting more than once.

I am hoping that offensive magic attribute has a "to hit" factor designed in to it, so PP spend +Magic level is required to actually ensure that the offensive spell hits the target at same difficulty as a fighter with dex, and not automatically hit after a successful "cast" has been determined.   As it is now "spell fail" is the only thing stopping a successful "hit" on the target.

A ranger i see does not have anything even like this in the pipe line. Their hits and damage is weapon+skill  based and no attribute effects this other than skill level(?).

If all of these issues are sorted then it would make it easier to "split" or give each player that participated in the kill some bonus xp based on the damage they did to the mob as a percentage of that damage.

Example 3 person team fighting a Level 96 mob they take it down, now how to award bonus exp?.

Level 20 ranger did 20% of total damage
Level 90 fighter did 70% of total damage and took 100% of dealt damage
Level 40 Mage did 10% of total damage

Level 20 ranger would then get 20% of the bonus as Range exp for a level 96 mob
Level 90 fighter would then get 70% of the bonus as attack exp for a level 96 mob
Level 40 mage would then get 10% of the bonus as magic exp for a level 96 mob

All bonus exp would be calculated according to the attackers skill level so the mage and ranger due to their skill level may get a higher bonus than that of the level 90 fighter even though they did less damage as a percentage. This would balance out over time as the ranger and mage obtain higher levels ie less xp per kill.

IMO if a player did no damage then they get NO exp.

Not sure how a "healers" bonus exp would be determined in this scenario, but thinking that they get some based on the attack level of the mob and how def exp is calculated. I need to think about this more though. BTW i dont think healing spells should require a "to hit" factor but this may be part of the defensive magic attribute thing.

#34 Learner

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:37 AM

As for Healers, maybe some sort of math related to getting shares of the Def Exp as Mad Exp would be possible. That does take some away from the Tank/Fighters, but would help encourage support mages doing healing on the Tank. Would have to be based on Healing you do to a Tank/Fighters that's taking damage, and done in such a way it can't be abused as well.

Possibly something like if the Healers ends up healing 100% of the damage the Tank/Fighter took from melee against that one mob, the Healer might be able to get 50% of that Def Exp away from the Tank/Fighters. The trick is how to track that without adding huge amounts of book keeping. So may need to be simpler then that. Gets complicated since when fighting a boss the Healer could be healing many different players Posted Image

Will think about it more and look at the details of whats being tracked now and how much complexity that would add.

#35 Learner

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 03:07 PM

The first draft version of how Exp might be applied is on Test now. There is no attempt yet to address the issues related to Healers and there are several known issues ... but if there is a multi Kill, it will print how it things would need to get split up. The code does NOT add the exp, but outputs & logs what it thinks should be done.

More work to do still, just trying to apply many thoughts related to this issue ... one team already found one of the possible exploits/problems with Exp I was expecting.

#36 ohmygod

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Posted 14 February 2019 - 11:20 PM

Does not show poison as magic or timed damage. I have melee a mob on one toon and poison dotted it on the other (out of combat), dissed and let poison kill. Did not display any splits after it dies.

Also found if you leave the map before the mob dies only shows the split on the character that stayed on the map. No split is shown on the other.

Still testing but might be easier if someone helps me test rather than trying to move two toons around at once.

LD and harm show as magic damage for split info. Also think... but not tested again due to RL making me leave and find out for sure. if you cast a poison + harm or LD, then it does not show any splits.

#37 ohmygod

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 03:24 AM

Cyclops CL 295 damage %
  (Avg Att [email protected] 283 Def [email protected] 294)
  ohmygod: ATT att 66.5% 761 rng 0.0% 0 mag 0.0% 0 DEF 100.0% 1145
  hal: ATT att 0.0% 0 rng 0.0% 0 mag 33.5% 179 DEF 0.0% 0

Fluffy Rabbit CL 330 damage %
  (Avg Att [email protected] 279 Def [email protected] 294)
  ohmygod: ATT att 53.2% 982 rng 0.0% 0 mag 0.0% 0 DEF 100.0% 1847
  hal: ATT att 0.0% 0 rng 0.0% 0 mag 46.8% 555 DEF 0.0% 0

Fluffy Rabbit CL 309 damage %
  (Avg Att [email protected] 254 Def [email protected] 294)
  ohmygod: ATT att 25.2% 465 rng 0.0% 0 mag 0.0% 0 DEF 100.0% 1847
  hal: ATT att 0.0% 0 rng 0.0% 0 mag 74.8% 887 DEF 0.0% 0

Fluffy Rabbit CL 314 damage %
  (Avg Att [email protected] 266 Def [email protected] 290)
  ohmygod: ATT att 20.0% 369 rng 0.0% 0 mag 0.0% 0 DEF 96.2% 1776
  hal: ATT att 0.0% 0 rng 0.0% 0 mag 80.0% 949 DEF 3.8% 79

Fluffy Rabbit CL 324 damage %
  (Avg Att [email protected] 237 Def [email protected] 291)
  ohmygod: ATT att 5.6% 103 rng 0.0% 0 mag 0.0% 0 DEF 97.4% 1800
  hal: ATT att 0.0% 0 rng 0.0% 0 mag 94.4% 1119 DEF 2.6% 53

#38 Learner

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 06:43 AM

The split info you see is said locally around the body, so if you are too far away on the same map you wont see it. It's simply a debug feature and all the splits are also being logged for me to review as well.

Still thinking on the best way to handle Poison, since that can some from multiple sources (such as a skunks special attack). Keep in mind that these stats are being tracked even for PvP, it's not just for mobs or Bosses, it's done for all damage.

The damage should show up if you did both LD+Poison, and get counted towards Magic in that case. Please try to test that again, because if that doesn't happen then there is an issue beyond just the split handling thats must be addressed.

I also know of other special cases that haven't been addressed yet.

#39 Learner

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Posted 15 February 2019 - 07:43 AM

Damage cause by summons or Mirror are now accounted for in determining the split %. This does NOT mean the summoner gets any experience from it. Note that if you Mirror a mobs attack, it counts as the mob hitting itself, not you hitting it!

#40 Learner

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Posted 20 February 2019 - 08:49 AM

I've been doing enhancements so that timed spells (like Poison) that come from magic spells it will now try to automatically count towards Magic. I'm also evaluating the effect on the server of tracking not just TotalDamage, but also the individual damages by Melee, Ranging, and Magic.

Keep in mind that Mirror always registers as damage done to yourself (or the mob doing it to itself if they take the damage), so it doesn't add to Exp at any time.

I'd like to see a group kill a Red Dragon on Test with heavy Ranging and Magic to help evaluate how those are being handled since they need special handling.




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