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Breaking the Coordination triple perfection


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Poll: Breakup Coordination? (76 member(s) have cast votes)

Swap Might from Coord with Charm in Instinct

  1. Yes, lets give that a try (27 votes [35.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 35.53%

  2. I don't know (10 votes [13.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.16%

  3. No, lets leave Coordination OP (39 votes [51.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.32%

Vote

#21 Hades

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:52 PM

I think we need new attributes/cross-attributes, not worth keeping the dead dog.

I understand this change is supposed to slow down the leveling(salt you aren't normal), but I will never agree on this change to stay in for a longer period of time.

Donno why don't we work on some system and decide on a concept at least, I hate that we have to stick with the sick and dying dog . We are smart people here, we could think up and work on a complete system(attri, skills, etc), present it here and maybe even get it up for vote if feedback is positive. Sure beats the hell out of 'hey lets swap shit attribute #1 with #2'.

Again, I only partially agree with this proposed change b/c, even though I know its good for slowing down levels, I am afraid it will stay in longer then needed.

#22 PandemiC

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostAislinn, on 02 October 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Makes no sense to me to not have more wipes.
It also makes no sense to change attributes mid-stream now.  People have placed a lot already and pp's won't be so easy to get so testing is rather limited now anyway.  So without a way to move them, why do it?  

I am raging at you for your usual "you said chair so you must be thinking pink elephant" interpretations.   Not for trying to fix something.  I just don't think it's a fix, but rather a reshuffling of bad stuff.

And as pointed out, this issue was already being worked on I thought. Why would I make another thread?


Pretty sure a soft reset is not an issue (like when attri cap was first introduced).

Learner said it might take some time to introduce Korrodes attribute system, so for the mean time a quickfix can be voted in.

The idea was originally by Learner, just started by Mr Starcy here. The idea switching would mean people would have to go 'half and half' in coord+instinct meaning they would still 'specialize' in 3 attributes rather than just the two currently people seem to be taking (the quickfix is actually the outcome really of Korrodes attribute system TO MY understanding).

#23 bog

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 06:14 PM

presentation is key

if you can present visual aids to clarify your point ( such as an experience curve chart , or a famed pie chart i fucking love pie charts )

this would stop all the confusion about whats going on here - people need to see what it is you are suggesting if they cannot quickly understand the consequences of an adjustment such as this

#24 joker

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:32 PM

i think we should leave coord as it is and work on bettering the other less attractive attributes

#25 Aislinn

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 07:53 PM

If you are jumping on the bandwagon of I'm too stupid to understand what the proposal is without a pie chart, let me be the first to reassure you that is not the case and that you can save your time and effort.

I get it. I don't think it is a good idea!  I explained why.  Geesh.  Should I make you all a pie chart?

#26 Salt

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:47 PM

Poll option is biased, it needs a "No, please go spend time with korrode attri system" as either a 4th option or renamed 3rd. "No, lets leave Coordination OP" ..also sounds like it's as if we aren't going to consider anything else (korr system) in future. While these points are obvious to us, the casual voter (lets face it not everyone reads everything before voting) can misinterpret the choices. The CONTEXT of purpose and duration for this change needs to be expanded...

Fact: EL system is unbalanced(re:coord), what would a test of changing a single sub attribute of coord prove? Is it worth the time to do this? Are the outcomes so unpredictable that we need to do this test? We want to try korr's attri. Go spend the time there. LINK TO KORR ATTRI  People voiced their approval, and there was remarkable lack of criticism.  It's rare for such unity in deciding what to try...take advantage of it, and lets get the new set of full atri asap.

A small bandaid change like this almost reminds me of something radu would do. We know how that turned out. I'm still unconvinced at this point that the hassle of this suggestion is worth its time people want to give it. Lets focus on the broken leg before we sort out the temporary paper cut.



OVER AND ABOVE STUFF PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED: the most important point people are missing....
If you look at korr's attri suggestion, he splits up Might into 2 separate cross attri. (because in the EL system might gives 2 benefits[EMU and dmg]). Which is important (and ties in with aisy's points) that it replaces 'unwanted' cross attri with more valuable choices. Its the reason why might is so powerful, and valued.

And thats why I voted no (altho it wont matter i guess; vote is already skewed in "yes" direction). Just had to say some points people were missing.

#27 Torg

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 09:58 PM

View PostSalt, on 02 October 2012 - 09:47 PM, said:

A small bandaid change like this almost reminds me of something radu would do. We know how that turned out. I'm still unconvinced at this point that the hassle of this suggestion is worth its time people want to give it. Lets focus on the broken leg before we sort out the temporary paper cut.

+1. Why are we even considering making some random tweak like this? Just focus on getting Korr's system in and wipe.


PS: St_ArcaNe you need to chill out and pay more attention.

#28 Korrode

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 11:32 PM

View PostPandemiC, on 02 October 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

The idea switching would mean people would have to go 'half and half' in coord+instinct
Well, regarding training, with the EL exp system, I wouldn't do that. Making yourself be able to both hit & dodge higher mobs earlier is the biggest exp boost. Coord would still be OP and I wouldn't get dodge from instinct when i can get both dodge and hit from coord and can make up lost Might via bone with star med, iron sword, steel long.
Only major impact is less emu so couldn't stay on spawn as long between restocks. (Or is this what you're actually trying to address?)

Though with the current exp system in place in OL, idk.



My suggestion for best overall balance if we are going to do something like this prior to a more final solution would be pull Dexterity off Coordination, not Might.

You don't want hitting+dodging on one attrib, and you don't want hitting+damage on one attrib.

Swap Coord's Dex with Will's Rat.

PHYS:
matter
might
toughness

COORD:
reaction
might
rationality

INST:
reaction
perception
charm

REAS:
dexterity
rationality
perception

WILL:
matter
ethereality
dexterity

VIT:
toughness
ethereality
charm


#29 St_ArcaNe

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 12:58 AM

Then you'd have reas+coord builds, IE massive exp increases and magic increase with the best fighting setup.

Also instinct is still just as worthless, and will is pretty ok as it is (my current build is will/reas and the only other stat is 8 coord, and I'm getting great exp due to the rationality bonus, if you went and made everyone a rationality character this would apply to everyone with no major fighting penalty).

Just my opinion anyway.

View PostTorg, on 02 October 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

+1. Why are we even considering making some random tweak like this? Just focus on getting Korr's system in and wipe

PS: St_ArcaNe you need to chill out and pay more attention.
Torg you need to step back and take a look at the bigger picture.

I am not at all opposed to korrode's attribs, but there hasn't even been a poll to promote it, how long do you think it will be before it's implemented?

Also, this is a small tweak that doesn't take much time, so don't get all the 'OMFG this is a waste of precious time' arguement.

#30 bog

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 01:50 AM

and I honest to god was not trying to be funny by suggesting a well presented experience curve chart can give graphic content to your suggestion

im trying my best to remain constructive here ?

*edit*  One of the best jobs I did as a stage manager in a small theatre was make a total mockery of the usual line of ordering people around and I made pie charts and silly notations just because for once it lightened the bloody mood

*edit 2* and honestly, unless korrodes system shines like golden shit people are going to have to be ready to change that too ffs

#31 Korrode

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 02:20 AM

View PostSt_ArcaNe, on 03 October 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

Then you'd have reas+coord builds, IE massive exp increases and magic increase with the best fighting setup.

Also instinct is still just as worthless, and will is pretty ok as it is (my current build is will/reas and the only other stat is 8 coord, and I'm getting great exp due to the rationality bonus, if you went and made everyone a rationality character this would apply to everyone with no major fighting penalty).
The bonus from rationality is really big for a/d exp atm?

View PostSt_ArcaNe, on 03 October 2012 - 12:58 AM, said:

I am not at all opposed to korrode's attribs, but there hasn't even been a poll to promote it, how long do you think it will be before it's implemented?
FYI i paid for a poll days ago.

#32 Bat17

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:18 AM

I don't really understand the system in detail but I know what I like :-)

I am a Mixer/Harvester EMU is my biggest priority to help those skills, I will add atrributes to get me more xp/faster learning too.

Will the changes reduce the max EMU that I can achive or will redistribution give it back to me with a differnt mix of choices?

Bat17

#33 St_ArcaNe

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 04:35 AM

View PostKorrode, on 03 October 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

The bonus from rationality is really big for a/d exp atm?


FYI i paid for a poll days ago.
Yes Rat stacks significantly on the exp bonus, but because my build is crappy vs a currently high coord one it balances out, since I still train goblins at 29 a/d while you can train gobs with high coord at 18-20, comparing to my alt I played (before the alt-fiasco) I get about the same exp as someone with 24 a/d or so.

Also keep in mind it gives a great boost in mixing skills as well, so there really would be just 1 build-for-all.

I am aware you paid for the poll concerning your attrib system, the hang up is the implementation there-of afaik. (that part is coded by radu and I have it on good authority from several ppl that his coding is very messy, you yourself and krayon also said that the EL server code is probably just 1 big ball of band aids)

View PostBat17, on 03 October 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

I don't really understand the system in detail but I know what I like :-)

I am a Mixer/Harvester EMU is my biggest priority to help those skills, I will add atrributes to get me more xp/faster learning too.

Will the changes reduce the max EMU that I can achive or will redistribution give it back to me with a differnt mix of choices?

Bat17

Redistribution via different choices, nothing stops you from maxing out EMU. This just stops the retarded 1 attribute fighter build.


View Postjoker, on 02 October 2012 - 07:32 PM, said:

i think we should leave coord as it is and work on bettering the other less attractive attributes

... what do you think happens when coord is nerfed and instinct is buffed?

You realise that each attribute has cross attributes and the thing making the attributes 'attractive' is the combination of cross attributes?

#34 Hades

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:10 AM

To balance out the attribute system we first need a rework of the other fighting skills(mag, summ, etc.)

The problems with the current attribute system are too many to mention, but the main problem is that some attributes give way too many benefits(dex-+acc, +eva, +dmg,+emu, phy+hp+dmg+emu+toughness).

I'd make a system where attributes would be in such a way, that you'd need at least 3 of them to be proficient at what you're doing(im not counting mixers here). If you get an attribute that gives damage, you shouldn't also get toughness, hp and other stuff, its way too much. I'd make a system more along the lines of :


Strenght - Increases damage and carry capacity

Dex- Increases evasion, accuracy (both melee and ranging) and critical damage bonus

Constitution- Increases HP and toughness

Vitality- Increases HP and Mana regen, healing effectiveness(increases effectiveness of healing spells), and small boost to move speed

Intelligence- Increases spell power, magic evasion and magic accuracy

Wisdom-Increases mana, spell critical damage, and magic accuracy


Also, this could only work if the HP of creatures would be increased, so people would actually need dmg/HP and not just take Dexterity. Some may think dexterity giving out accuracy and evasion is too much, but given the fact that damage as well as HP will be needed because of bigger HP bars, people would also have to take Strenght and constitution, in order to be a good fighter. As for archers, bows should have increased attack speed, so they could risk and have less hp, so they crit more often. A ranger who would take also take strenght would have a very low HP poll, as well as less accuracy. Mages and summoners would obviously go for vit/intelligence/wisdom builds, summoners needing more vitality because of the mana regen as well as the heal bonus they'd do to their summons(summoner spells would have to be added-healing/buffing spells). Tank roles could be assumed through equipment used, as well as a dex/cons build.

Of course this is only my suggestion, I thought of this because we all know that a whole remake of attributes has to be done. Feel free to flame/give out constructive criticism/make fun of my forest/etc.

#35 Rabbitman

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:18 AM

I want to see your forest :> but also <3 moving to dnd type cross attributes.

#36 mistral

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 08:33 AM

i voted to stay as it is, cause i would rather see a new balanced attribute system before changing the "original" one

#37 HaZe

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:34 AM

When we do it we go back to 200-300 emu? Its bad idea i think... now its ok keep other attr for mages/rangers

#38 St_ArcaNe

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:46 AM

ya fk any other builds, fighters should have it all with just 1 attrib, that's the way god intended it and I'll be damned if u force me to have to be creative concerning pp usage.

#39 Trojan_Knight

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 05:14 AM

I voted to keep as is.

Only because I feel overall the attribute system needs a complete remodel. To maybe do more then just help people that like to attack other people or creatures. Ie: Help mixers, mix faster or in a better ratio or less tools breaking, help harvestors harvest faster or get less dmg while harvesting or less tools breaking, help people gain more exp, help fighters take less and give more dmg, help people be more resistant to spells or to side effects of items when used, help in so many different ways then it currently does. And because of so, I would like to test those types of attribute systems if I were to test a attribute system.

And +1 to the charm = get better deal idea

:)

#40 St_ArcaNe

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:01 AM

We are (hopefully) getting an entirely new attrib system, what's the point in changing charm just till then? This is just a tweak to fix the imbalance for now, since we are apparently playing on a live server.

This is not an alternate attrib system that we intend to keep, it's to fix EL's shitty attrib system while we still have to use it.




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