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Perk - Lucky Dodger


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#1 Learner

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 04:33 AM

Lucky dodger: (cannot combine with lucky hitter)
7% Lucky dodge   - 1pp -   +7% chance to dodge,   -5% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
14% Lucky dodge - 1pp - +14% chance to dodge, -10% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
21% Lucky dodge - 1pp - +21% chance to dodge, -10% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats

Changes from initial proposal are in Level 3:
25% reduce to 21% to be consistent in progression
-10% put back in since an increasing negative shouldn't vanish just because you maxed it out.

An alternative that could be -15% to hit for Level 3 if consistent progressions is deemed best.

Concerns/Issues:
Combat doesn't calculate a % chance to hit. It calculates a number for the attacker and another for the defender with randomness included and sees which is higher. A simpler solution would be for it to subtract from a players Attack or Accuracy while adding to their Defense or Blocking.

Even switching to the Sigmoid Combat being tested doesn't resolve this, since the chances there are non-linear,

Possible values maybe:
+2 & -1
+4 & -2
+6 & -2 (or -3)

see also discussions in https://www.other-li...s-lucky-hitter/

... discuss

#2 butler

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 12:57 PM

View PostLearner, on 27 March 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Lucky dodger: (cannot combine with lucky hitter)
7% Lucky dodge   - 1pp -   +7% chance to dodge,   -5% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
14% Lucky dodge - 1pp - +14% chance to dodge, -10% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
21% Lucky dodge - 1pp - +21% chance to dodge, -10% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
I do like these new numbers, and they do look good still, and a strong perk for tanking. Still top of my shopping list.

View PostLearner, on 27 March 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Changes from initial proposal are in Level 3:
25% reduce to 21% to be consistent in progression
-10% put back in since an increasing negative shouldn't vanish just because you maxed it out.

An alternative that could be -15% to hit for Level 3 if consistent progressions is deemed best.
I'd say not furthering the penalty is a good compromise between keeping to a direct line of progression, and what i assume is the original perk outlines conceptual reason for negating negatives at tier 3, that of making tier 3's a significant move from tier 2 to make that fairly large investment more tempting, given:
3 full tier 3's on most people's probably perk point numbers, compared to
3 tier 2's and a tier 3 which could be quite easily more powerful.

I think it's a good solution to the issue.

View PostLearner, on 27 March 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Concerns/Issues:
Combat doesn't calculate a % chance to hit. It calculates a number for the attacker and another for the defender with randomness included and sees which is higher. A simpler solution would be for it to subtract from a players Attack or Accuracy while adding to their Defense or Blocking.

Even switching to the Sigmoid Combat being tested doesn't resolve this, since the chances there are non-linear,
Would it be possible for that random number, after initially generating, to be processed again to find it's percentage and then add that to the initial number - or remove the percentage of the opponents numbers in accordance to the player's perk -  and use that as the end numbers that compete?

I'm not sure if that's what was envisaged by the perk proposal, or if that's possible in the way that combat is coded, or maybe i'm thinking in overly simplistic code.

#3 Learner

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 01:03 PM

View Postbutler, on 27 March 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

View PostLearner, on 27 March 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Lucky dodger: (cannot combine with lucky hitter)
7% Lucky dodge   - 1pp -   +7% chance to dodge,   -5% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
14% Lucky dodge - 1pp - +14% chance to dodge, -10% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
21% Lucky dodge - 1pp - +21% chance to dodge, -10% chance to hit, regardless of combat stats
I do like these new numbers, and they do look good still, and a strong perk for tanking. Still top of my shopping list.

View PostLearner, on 27 March 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Changes from initial proposal are in Level 3:
25% reduce to 21% to be consistent in progression
-10% put back in since an increasing negative shouldn't vanish just because you maxed it out.

An alternative that could be -15% to hit for Level 3 if consistent progressions is deemed best.
I'd say not furthering the penalty is a good compromise between keeping to a direct line of progression, and what i assume is the original perk outlines conceptual reason for negating negatives at tier 3, that of making tier 3's a significant move from tier 2 to make that fairly large investment more tempting, given:
3 full tier 3's on most people's probably perk point numbers, compared to
3 tier 2's and a tier 3 which could be quite easily more powerful.

I think it's a good solution to the issue.

View PostLearner, on 27 March 2018 - 04:33 AM, said:

Concerns/Issues:
Combat doesn't calculate a % chance to hit. It calculates a number for the attacker and another for the defender with randomness included and sees which is higher. A simpler solution would be for it to subtract from a players Attack or Accuracy while adding to their Defense or Blocking.

Even switching to the Sigmoid Combat being tested doesn't resolve this, since the chances there are non-linear,
Would it be possible for that random number, after initially generating, to be processed again to find it's percentage and then add that to the initial number - or remove the percentage of the opponents numbers in accordance to the player's perk -  and use that as the end numbers that compete?

I'm not sure if that's what was envisaged by the perk proposal, or if that's possible in the way that combat is coded, or maybe i'm thinking in overly simplistic code.
Switching to a % can get complicated and would slow down making these two Perks available. The numbers I supplied were ones just tossed into the ait to be thinking about, think of them as bonuses to your level for their effects. Thats why the threads so we can discuss each in detail, and if necessary make changes or adjust priorities.

#4 butler

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 01:22 PM

View PostLearner, on 27 March 2018 - 01:03 PM, said:

<snip>
Switching to a % can get complicated and would slow down making these two Perks available. The numbers I supplied were ones just tossed into the ait to be thinking about, think of them as bonuses to your level for their effects. Thats why the threads so we can discuss each in detail, and if necessary make changes or adjust priorities.

Difficult for me to gauge what differences those number make into the numbers behind the combat system, do you happen to have some sample numbers, say what a brown rabbit, troll or a cyclops would ordinarily throw out during a fight, to give an idea to the type of numbers those values would be impacting on?

I'd also say that the delay to incorporate percentages would be worthwhile, as many proposed perks had those as their main positive feature, and the way that a percentage based perk could augment a pickpoint based build would be more interesting and engaging with that as a feature, and create a dynamic between perks (as modifiers of) and pickpoints cross attributes (base straight upgrades).

generally perks/ upgrades / traits in games are more interesting by modifying gameplay if they aren't straight numbers. Speaking entirely from examples of upgrade trees, which are relevant in terms of the design, straight upgrades are incredibly useful (and with MMO progression, essential, and x attris as such deal with it), whilst side grades and modifiers of gameplay are the most entertaining, memorable, and impactful to the game, as they will fundamentally change how it is played.

I'd argue perks are very much the latter, by including a positive and a negative, and kind of floating around the concept of "sidegrades", because they seem to be primarily designed to change playstyles or to enhance current playstyles. I think percentages incorporated can help make the perks more scaleable and dynamic, and through that, make a different position for themselves to cross attributes by being markedly different by not being straight number changes.

otherwise, a very long winded way of me saying i think percentages justify the extra effort and time.

#5 WaterBottle

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Posted 27 March 2018 - 08:23 PM

Initial thought before sleeping: I tend to lean towards percentages, which is more work up front but in the long run would be "easier" to maintain down the road if/when more items that affect attack/defense related stats comes to fruition. And as butler kind of pointed out, straight number increases wouldn't change the current state of the game due to stats just gets bumped up/down by roughly the same amount regardless of anything.

#6 butler

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:42 AM

so what's actually on the test with this, I'm guessing it's just a straight number addition and not the percentages right now?

Feels like it does something, but I think i might be being cheated because of my max reaction :<

#7 Learner

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:56 AM

What Perks are active on Test are stated in the Green login Text. Lucky Dodger & Lucky Hitter for example have NOT been coded yet. They have been defined so can be bought, but do nothing.

#8 butler

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:57 AM

Okay, i was a confused twit then. Cool.

#9 ohmygod

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 06:07 AM

Same issue as the other perk in relation to neg effect, it can be negated with a specific build to a certain point. Add extra dex or use accuracy pot




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