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Perk - Tank


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#41 CoduX

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Posted 17 April 2018 - 11:24 PM

View PostSimAnt, on 17 April 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

it should be +2 def every 2 mobs so, +8 def.
With Dancing perk reducing -40 def to -16 def this would mean that player is only -8 def when facing x8 mobs when combining these two perks, plus the armor increase.
That looks a lot more interesting and compelling to take than what I thought it was gonna be like with omg's stats Posted Image

#42 ohmygod

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 03:29 AM

(edit deleted a bit as was looking at wrong perk...)

What is ignore CL for Feros/cycs?

#43 Learner

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 04:44 AM

View Postohmygod, on 18 April 2018 - 03:29 AM, said:

(edit deleted a bit as was looking at wrong perk...)

What is ignore CL for Feros/cycs?
The new OL CL's aren't used for ignores yet.

#44 ohmygod

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 06:59 AM

View PostCoduX, on 17 April 2018 - 11:24 PM, said:

View PostSimAnt, on 17 April 2018 - 05:48 PM, said:

it should be +2 def every 2 mobs so, +8 def.
With Dancing perk reducing -40 def to -16 def this would mean that player is only -8 def when facing x8 mobs when combining these two perks, plus the armor increase.
That looks a lot more interesting and compelling to take than what I thought it was gonna be like with omg's stats Posted Image
Yea I was out a little forgot the -40 at 8x mobs, and start at -10 x 2 mobs not -5

Quote


The new OL CL's aren't used for ignores yet.
ok

ADDED:

Tested several hours last night, took the combo and still felt a bit soft, had to max out toughness/reaction for it to feel better, dunno that might be just me i suppose. I did get some nice exp/min/hour numbers even without def god, and had low resource usage as well.

#45 butler

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 09:13 AM

Did more testing on the tank perk, with standard tanking equipment versus 1-4 feros + the occasional fluffy.

Got roughly damaged 14-15-18-19 with Serp sword for 1 feros (with occasional 1s)
Got roughly damaged 13-15-17 with maxed tank perk (with occasional 1s-2s)
Similar for more, fluffies crits kind of were the outliers.

Also get hit more by the mobs without the serp on >.> so the 1-4 damage reduction kind of instantly goes by the fact you are getting hit more, so I still feel like it doesn't quite warrant dumping the points into it compared to dancing or lucky dodge.

Still looking at it from the perspective of all equipment in game right now, it's borderline useless

#46 SimAnt

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 06:43 PM

View Postbutler, on 19 April 2018 - 09:13 AM, said:

it's borderline useless

I propose adding 4 toughness, 8 toughness, 12 toughness to the tiers of this perk. and an additional +1 toughness for each mob on player.

#47 ohmygod

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Posted 24 April 2018 - 07:26 PM

Quote

I propose adding 4 toughness, 8 toughness, 12 toughness to the tiers of this perk.
How would that look/feel with cap 50 on toughness + perk?

#48 PandemiC

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 11:57 AM

Tried this out a little bit. It's hardly noticeable, with or without the extra mobs for added defense.

Wearing full iron gives you a BASE armor of 13. Gatherer makes this 15. Max armor is 20, or 22 with gatherer.

13*0.3 = 3.90 (probably rounded down to 3)  
15*0.3 = 4.50 (probably rounded down to 4)

This makes (with rank 3) a difference of 3 to 4 base armor, this DOES NOT make up for the fact that wearing a Serpent Sword gives you a +4 defense bonus. You would need 4 mobs on you to make up for the defense bonus lost from not equipping a sword, which is then further negated even IF you have the 'Dancing' perk.

The current 'Tank' style is quite hard to maintain and gain exp or level, this perk doesn't make 1 on 1 (or 1 on 2, or more) situations any better in PvP or PvE.

To make these perks more viable, I would suggest a change in the armor formula:

Current:
Base Armor + 10/20/30% Base (+1/2/2 def, -1 att per 2 mobs)

Proposed:
Base armor + 20/35/50% Base (+1/2/3 def per mob, plus 1 toughness per mob).

With 8 mobs at Rank 3, you will receive a -40 def penalty for having 8 mobs, +24 defense bonus (-16 def total), +8 toughness bonus, +8 armor (50% of base).
Stack this with Dancing perk, which reduces the -5 def per mob to -2 per mob, you will end up with +8 defense, +8 toughness, +8 armor.

The attack penalty is utterly pointless. They aren't wearing a weapon for the perk bonus to come into effect.

EDIT:
Changed proposed armor from 15/25/50, to 20/35/50%.


#49 butler

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 02:23 PM

View PostPandemiC, on 01 May 2018 - 11:57 AM, said:

Tried this out a little bit. It's hardly noticeable, with or without the extra mobs for added defense.

Wearing full iron gives you a BASE armor of 13. Gatherer makes this 15. Max armor is 20, or 22 with gatherer.

13*0.3 = 3.90 (probably rounded down to 3)  
15*0.3 = 4.50 (probably rounded down to 4)

This makes (with rank 3) a difference of 3 to 4 base armor, this DOES NOT make up for the fact that wearing a Serpent Sword gives you a +4 defense bonus. You would need 4 mobs on you to make up for the defense bonus lost from not equipping a sword, which is then further negated even IF you have the 'Dancing' perk.

The current 'Tank' style is quite hard to maintain and gain exp or level, this perk doesn't make 1 on 1 (or 1 on 2, or more) situations any better in PvP or PvE.

To make these perks more viable, I would suggest to change the armor formula to:

Current:
Base Armor + 10/20/30% Base (+1/2/2 def, -1 att per 2 mobs)

Proposed:
Base armor + 15/25/50% Base (+1/2/3 def per mob, plus 1 toughness per mob).

With 8 mobs at Rank 3, you will receive a -40 def penalty for having 8 mobs, +24 defense bonus (-16 def total), +8 toughness bonus, +8 armor (50% of base).
Stack this with Dancing perk, which reduces the -5 def per mob to -2 per mob, you will end up with +8 defense, +8 toughness, +8 armor.

The attack penalty is utterly pointless. They aren't wearing a weapon for the perk bonus to come into effect.
Everything he says is correct and on point. One issue is L doesn't want the upgrade in percentage/straight numbers to change between tiers, so I'd say 20/35/50

#50 PandemiC

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 02:40 PM

I'll edit the post now.

#51 ohmygod

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 01:26 AM

Armor and def are two different things in relation to combat calculations. One is damage mitigation and the other is damage avoidance?

It is agreed for now that damage mitigation due to iron plate being the best armor in game kinda sucks....

What if we stop talking in circles about it being sucky now but when new armor is added to game it may be over powered if changed now etc. and focus instead on how the perk can help a boss tank to avoid being hit?

Straight up i reckon a tank should get more benefit from the perk if tanking a boss (single mob), and preferably as part of a team.

What if the longer the tank is on the boss the higher their chance of avoiding incoming damage?

There was an item if i recall correctly called greaves of uber defence it gave a chance that your def would increase upon a hit. Can we not think of how this mechanic could be used in relation to this perk?

I would also suggest to avoid abuse of it maybe make the def bonus disappear upon a flee or diss and only be active if facing single mob? The chances for it to give bonus def could be higher than what is current on the greave mechanic

#52 butler

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 10:40 AM

Defense mitigates both damage absorption and avoidance, whilst armour is just absorption. I think tank was originally supposed to be an opposite side of the coin to two handed, whilst lucky dodger was taking up the avoidance part.

I'm not going against what you're saying, just stating what i think the original intentions of the perk is.

Issue also is that afaik, new armour isn't even on the list of things to be done within the near future, and the damage mitigation added by perk for iron is kind of crap, but iron itself is pretty nice imo.

Woulds till say that the original conceit, from not having a weapon, does generally encourage tanking a single mob versus multiple, as generally you want to be able to kill off the multiple mobs, and any armour bonus, even if increased, would probably still be negligible once you add the def penalty you are getting.

#53 ohmygod

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 05:31 PM

You sure about def mitigating damage through absorption? Thought toughness/armor was the absorption stats for damage. will check when i get back from work.

Reread above post and didn't sound right correcting it here as to how i am reading combat calcs-

Damage mitigation = avoidance + Absorption
Def + evasion (pots)=avoidance
Armor+Toughness =Absorption

#54 butler

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 07:58 AM

View Postohmygod, on 06 June 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

<snip>
Damage mitigation = avoidance + Absorption
Def + evasion (pots)=avoidance
Armor+Toughness =Absorption

the avoidance is far more noticeable with defense, but there is a change in the amount of apsorption, it isn't as pronounced as armor however. If you straight level a character's def without touching it's react/toughness, there should be a small reduction in damage over time, i believe.

Defense works similar to attack, which increases both hit chance and damage done.

#55 ohmygod

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 08:20 AM

Quote

Accuracy increases your ability to successfully hit opponents. It does not increase the damage you inflict on opponents.
The outcomes of extensive testing strongly support that 1 accuracy provides the same increase in your ability to hit as 1 attack level does.

Defense increases your ability to successfully dodge hits. It does not decrease received damage.
The outcomes of extensive testing strongly support that 1 (equipment) defense provides the same increase in your ability to dodge as 1 (skill) defense level does.

Must have changed since 2010

Or OL has a different combat calculations.

#56 butler

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 10:04 AM

Possibly in the sense of armour/weapons that do it, like uni med and serpent sword. I may have muddled it with the defense skill.




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