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Perk - Mirror


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#1 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 07:39 AM

Mirror:
(Cannot be combined with Life Steal)
(Rounding away from zero, .5 would round to 1, .4 round to 0)
(would mirror the amount the mob is about to hit, not affected by perk users stats, and hit back, eg. if mob hits you for 10 and you absorb all that damage, it will still mirror back)

Concerns/Issues:
How Mirror is defined means if you have high armor absorption you could just stand there, take no damage and a mob can just kill itself unless it gets lucky and gets in crits. I totally feel the Mirror Perk as originally proposed should NOT be implemented, instead discuss a better way to handle it!

Another issue is how odd the negative, where the worst negative is on Level 1 and becomes less negative with each level. Counter intuitive.

https://www.other-li...proposed-perks/

#2 butler

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 09:02 AM

Is the issue in the percentage chance of being activated, or the fact that it is constantly activated, compared to a cloaks partial activation, or to what end.

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

<snip>
Concerns/Issues:
How Mirror is defined means if you have high armor absorption you could just stand there, take no damage and a mob can just kill itself unless it gets lucky and gets in crits. I totally feel the Mirror Perk as originally proposed should NOT be implemented, instead discuss a better way to handle it!
<snip>

From that, i struggle to see any way that you can implement what the mirror perk is, without that being a problem. 1% still makes that an issue. 10% on a cloak has said issue. Is there a limitation you see needed, or in which direction do you want this discussion to go, as the stated issue seems to be the core mechanic of the perk, i.e. the reflection.

#3 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 09:11 AM

View Postbutler, on 28 March 2018 - 09:02 AM, said:

Is the issue in the percentage chance of being activated, or the fact that it is constantly activated, compared to a cloaks partial activation, or to what end.

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

<snip>
Concerns/Issues:
How Mirror is defined means if you have high armor absorption you could just stand there, take no damage and a mob can just kill itself unless it gets lucky and gets in crits. I totally feel the Mirror Perk as originally proposed should NOT be implemented, instead discuss a better way to handle it!
<snip>

From that, i struggle to see any way that you can implement what the mirror perk is, without that being a problem. 1% still makes that an issue. 10% on a cloak has said issue. Is there a limitation you see needed, or in which direction do you want this discussion to go, as the stated issue seems to be the core mechanic of the perk, i.e. the reflection.
The issue is a combination of it is always in effect and taken before any damage is absorbed by the armor. Since you are mirror damage, that reduces how much damage would reach the armor prior to being reduce and increases the chances the player will have mobs that won't be able to injure them at all.

But, if the reflection is done after armor absorption happens, then very little damage at all might get reflected and it weakens the Perk.

#4 butler

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 09:24 AM

is it possible then that a portion of mirrored damage continues into the armour, so 80% of mirrored damage is negated, but that 20% is added onto whatever didn't get negated?

So i imagine the fact that it's not always on with the cape means the cape won't be affected by this, and this will be a tweaked version of the cape in the event they divide somewhat with this?

#5 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 09:51 AM

View Postbutler, on 28 March 2018 - 09:24 AM, said:

is it possible then that a portion of mirrored damage continues into the armour, so 80% of mirrored damage is negated, but that 20% is added onto whatever didn't get negated?

So i imagine the fact that it's not always on with the cape means the cape won't be affected by this, and this will be a tweaked version of the cape in the event they divide somewhat with this?
Not sure what you mean by your first statement.

Cape is all or nothing, so it's much simpler, and if I'm not careful if the cape is left as is a portion of the capes mirror might get reflected back by this due to how the code handles mirror cape (it changes the Target part way through the logic) so that is something I'll have to address, but not an issue.

#6 butler

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 10:56 AM

what i was trying to say is if you mirrored 40 damage, maybe you took 8 of that damage that you did mirror.

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 11:23 AM

View Postbutler, on 28 March 2018 - 10:56 AM, said:

what i was trying to say is if you mirrored 40 damage, maybe you took 8 of that damage that you did mirror.
By definition Mirroring means the damage goes back to the attacker instead of you. Plus I'm not sure if letting the mirrored damage stay with the total resolves the concerns since you still always mirror before subtraction of the damage. That's why we need to have a discussion here, instead of just two people bouncing back and forth ideas, but hopefully it will inspire others.

#8 WaterBottle

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 04:55 PM

So is the issue that reflecting a certain percentage of the incoming damage is not an option anymore as in the original proposal?

I guess a larger question then is are we trying to find a tradeoff from having the perk to the cloak? I am going off the assumption the cloak cannot be worn if the perk exists.

#9 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:02 PM

View PostWaterBottle, on 28 March 2018 - 04:55 PM, said:

So is the issue that reflecting a certain percentage of the incoming damage is not an option anymore as in the original proposal?

I guess a larger question then is are we trying to find a tradeoff from having the perk to the cloak? I am going off the assumption the cloak cannot be worn if the perk exists.
My assumption has been that the cloak wouldn't be wearable with this Perk as well.

#10 SimAnt

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:12 PM

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

The issue is a combination of it is always in effect and taken before any damage is absorbed by the armor. Since you are mirror damage, that reduces how much damage would reach the armor prior to being reduce and increases the chances the player will have mobs that won't be able to injure them at all.

But, if the reflection is done after armor absorption happens, then very little damage at all might get reflected and it weakens the Perk.


The point of the targets armor not affecting the amount reflected back was so that the full amount would go back to the attacker, and their own armor would mitigate it. So if the mob hit 10 before armor, then 3% of 10 would be mirrored back and then further reduced by the mobs own defenses. Also of course you can't mirror back damage that you would have dodged.
IMO if the mob is so weak it can't hit you even when you don't have mirror, and it doesn't even have enough armor to defend against its own attacks. Then it should just stand there and die.
There are also negatives for players, remember when in a horde of mixed level mobs, all the weak mobs will die sooner and the player will soon be dealing with all hard hitters and can't just avoid killing the low levels to avoid being hit harder. So instead of lets say x3 cyclops and some goblins u would get piled with x8 cyclops.

#11 butler

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:20 PM

Would also say mirrors tend to only be pulled out (in my experience) for extreme circumstances, as in being ploughed by multiple fluffs, versus giganta, or other high dps mobs, and that most mobs that require a mirror to do damage to it where you wouldn't really be doing it yourself, tend to be the ones that quite easily cleave through your armour and defences. I think the only mobs it would really have much effect on for me would be the chims and fluffs, and only then really in the 1-2 of them being on me, prior to my oh crap I'm going to die, mirror, moments.

#12 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:37 PM

View Postbutler, on 28 March 2018 - 05:20 PM, said:

Would also say mirrors tend to only be pulled out (in my experience) for extreme circumstances, as in being ploughed by multiple fluffs, versus giganta, or other high dps mobs, and that most mobs that require a mirror to do damage to it where you wouldn't really be doing it yourself, tend to be the ones that quite easily cleave through your armour and defences. I think the only mobs it would really have much effect on for me would be the chims and fluffs, and only then really in the 1-2 of them being on me, prior to my oh crap I'm going to die, mirror, moments.
While that would apply to the Mirror Cloak, for a Perk one has to think of many use cases, which is why my concern on how this is written. It's not like they are risking a cloak breaking, so you do look for how a Perk can be abused.

View PostSimAnt, on 28 March 2018 - 05:12 PM, said:

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

The issue is a combination of it is always in effect and taken before any damage is absorbed by the armor. Since you are mirror damage, that reduces how much damage would reach the armor prior to being reduce and increases the chances the player will have mobs that won't be able to injure them at all.

But, if the reflection is done after armor absorption happens, then very little damage at all might get reflected and it weakens the Perk.


The point of the targets armor not affecting the amount reflected back was so that the full amount would go back to the attacker, and their own armor would mitigate it. So if the mob hit 10 before armor, then 3% of 10 would be mirrored back and then further reduced by the mobs own defenses. Also of course you can't mirror back damage that you would have dodged.
IMO if the mob is so weak it can't hit you even when you don't have mirror, and it doesn't even have enough armor to defend against its own attacks. Then it should just stand there and die.
There are also negatives for players, remember when in a horde of mixed level mobs, all the weak mobs will die sooner and the player will soon be dealing with all hard hitters and can't just avoid killing the low levels to avoid being hit harder. So instead of lets say x3 cyclops and some goblins u would get piled with x8 cyclops.
I'm referring to cases where the mob can hot, but you have enough armor to absorb most or all of the damage. Hence you take little or no damage but still the mob ends up killing itself since ALL hit get part of it mirrored.

#13 butler

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:40 PM

I can't really think of any mobs where that would happen though, except mobs with high crit chances, such as fluffy and such.

I'm trying to think of an instances of mobs that could fit into that problem

#14 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 05:42 PM

View Postbutler, on 28 March 2018 - 05:40 PM, said:

I can't really think of any mobs where that would happen though, except mobs with high crit chances, such as fluffy and such.

I'm trying to think of an instances of mobs that could fit into that problem
Look at it another way, we already have issues with people afking on a weak invaded map ... a mirror perk written as defined will greatly increase how often that can happen. Remember, mobs always have a chance to hit even if they don't crit, just in most cases the armor is probably absorbing the damage so you don't notice it.

#15 SimAnt

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 07:02 PM

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

I'm referring to cases where the mob can hot, but you have enough armor to absorb most or all of the damage. Hence you take little or no damage but still the mob ends up killing itself since ALL hit get part of it mirrored.

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

Look at it another way, we already have issues with people afking on a weak invaded map ... a mirror perk written as defined will greatly increase how often that can happen. Remember, mobs always have a chance to hit even if they don't crit, just in most cases the armor is probably absorbing the damage so you don't notice it.

From how i see it nothing will get mirrored back if the hit is less than 17 in tier one at 3%, because 17 * 0.03 = 0.51 which would round up, anything lower would round down to zero.
tier 2  at 6% would require a hit of 9 to be greater than .5,
tier 3 at 9% would require a hit of 6 to be greater than .5

i don't see this killing off low level mobs like rabbits and beavers quickly, and given how much a player would dodge such low level attacks, even less likely.

anything less than .5 is just basically a mirror without enough force to cause damage back, being just a 3/6/9% damage reduction for the player that round.

#16 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 07:09 PM

View PostSimAnt, on 28 March 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

I'm referring to cases where the mob can hot, but you have enough armor to absorb most or all of the damage. Hence you take little or no damage but still the mob ends up killing itself since ALL hit get part of it mirrored.

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

Look at it another way, we already have issues with people afking on a weak invaded map ... a mirror perk written as defined will greatly increase how often that can happen. Remember, mobs always have a chance to hit even if they don't crit, just in most cases the armor is probably absorbing the damage so you don't notice it.

From how i see it nothing will get mirrored back if the hit is less than 17 in tier one at 3%, because 17 * 0.03 = 0.51 which would round up, anything lower would round down to zero.
tier 2  at 6% would require a hit of 9 to be greater than .5,
tier 3 at 9% would require a hit of 6 to be greater than .5

i don't see this killing off low level mobs like rabbits and beavers quickly, and given how much a player would dodge such low level attacks, even less likely.

anything less than .5 is just basically a mirror without enough force to cause damage back, being just a 3/6/9% damage reduction for the player that round.
When you are fully equipped, what does #arm say for Armor? That means if a mob is hitting you for about 10% above that, it would be taking damage and you never would. And I do meanf FULLY Equipped, think full iron plate etc.

Then extrapolate as higher level armors get added to the game.

#17 SimAnt

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 08:01 PM

You are still getting hit for 97%, 94%, 91% of the damage the mob is hitting you with after armor absorption. If the amount of damage is like 20 from the mob, and my armor takes like 10 off of that, i would still be getting hit 97% of the 10 damage, 9.7, which would round up to 10 still... so i would be taking 10 damage and the mob would take 3% of 20, which is 1 damage back to the mob before the mobs own armor absorption. which is the opposite of what i think you are saying.

#18 Learner

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 08:07 PM

View PostSimAnt, on 28 March 2018 - 08:01 PM, said:

You are still getting hit for 97%, 94%, 91% of the damage the mob is hitting you with after armor absorption. If the amount of damage is like 20 from the mob, and my armor takes like 10 off of that, i would still be getting hit 97% of the 10 damage, 9.7, which would round up to 10 still... so i would be taking 10 damage and the mob would take 3% of 20, which is 1 damage back to the mob before the mobs own armor absorption. which is the opposite of what i think you are saying.
Even with the current equipment, you can hit a minimum Armor or 20, with a max higher then that. As I said, now extrapolate what happens if we add higher armors. Have you checked to see what the numbers are with current equipment for whats possible as I suggested? Don't forget the +4 from Moon medallion as well.

This isn't about how people are expected to use it. You have to look at how people may try to abuse it on purpose.

Edit: This is also the first mention that the mobs armor would be taken into account ... adding that means the Perk then becomes use since they have their full armor for protection.

#19 SimAnt

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Posted 28 March 2018 - 08:46 PM

New Proposal:

Terminology:
perk owner: the target being attacked
attacker: the one attacking the target
armor: the resistance the perk owner or attacker has against the damage type


After perk owner armor is applied, 20% of that is mirrored back to the attacker ignoring attacker armor, the remaining 80% is still directed to perk owner. Perk has 7%? chance of activation each time target is hit. This perk applies to all damage types: melee, range, magic, etc.

#20 Learner

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 05:22 AM

View PostSimAnt, on 28 March 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

New Proposal:

Terminology:
perk owner: the target being attacked
attacker: the one attacking the target
armor: the resistance the perk owner or attacker has against the damage type


After perk owner armor is applied, 20% of that is mirrored back to the attacker ignoring attacker armor, the remaining 80% is still directed to perk owner. Perk has 7%? chance of activation each time target is hit. This perk applies to all damage types: melee, range, magic, etc.
For comparison the Mirror Cloak is 10% to reflect all the damage you would have taken, but a risk the cloak will break.




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