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Perk - Mirror


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#21 butler

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 05:29 AM

View PostLearner, on 28 March 2018 - 05:42 PM, said:

<snip>
Look at it another way, we already have issues with people afking on a weak invaded map ... a mirror perk written as defined will greatly increase how often that can happen.
<snip>

however, the invasions where you're saying this would happen are already easily farmed afk, as the mob tends to die 1-4 hits. It doesn't really mean those afking in rabbits-trolls are going to suddenly afk in cyclops,

say again, the mobs where the primary damage to it will be mirrored attacks would be ones that easily great large quantities of damage to the player.

if it bothers you so largely, you could put it so there is a % time of when a mirror is activated, that it might "shut off", so 10% chance of doing a mirror, and 2% chance that on a successful mirror, that the perk deactivates for 1-5 minutes. (though i'd say a console print out warning that this has happened would be ideal)

#22 CoduX

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Posted 29 March 2018 - 06:31 AM

Be careful not to nerf this perk too much..

#23 CoduX

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 04:55 AM

View Postbutler, on 29 March 2018 - 05:29 AM, said:

if it bothers you so largely, you could put it so there is a % time of when a mirror is activated, that it might "shut off", so 10% chance of doing a mirror, and 2% chance that on a successful mirror, that the perk deactivates for 1-5 minutes. (though i'd say a console print out warning that this has happened would be ideal)

Are you suggesting that either
a) There is a 1/10 chance of the perk activating, and then on top of that chance there is only a 1/50 chance of the mirror being successful??
OR
b ) Upon that 1/10 chance happens, there is a 100% chance of the mirrored damage happening, but then there is a 1/50 chance the perk deactivates for 1/5 minutes?

Either way, that is making the perk hard to look at getting since Perk Points are a rarity with only 10 can possibly exist (currently). Not to mention that there is a cape that exists that already does a better job than what is being proposed & frankly, there are perks that are now looking to be better to have for a fighter build if the mirror perk is going to be nerfed down that much, which is disappointing.

#24 butler

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 05:40 AM

I was saying closer to the (B), as (a) is just making a percentage of a percentage... which might as well be a percentage.
b i was only suggesting since L is incredibly concerned about the breaking part, and merely suggesting that if he is that concerned, that mechanic could be replicated, using the same chances of a cape breaking to the perk "stopping."

However, i entirely agree, the way L is putting it, it does seem to be not going towards being a choice (expensive cape versus expensive perk) to being an inferior version, which would be dead on arrival.

I have the same reservations now with this as the tanking perk, where they may be watered down to uselessness, even for people like myself who are built exactly for this type of perk to work for them.

As above in many of the posts on this thread, the point where it can be abused is very small, and isn't changing the games areas of abuses (as the situation he claims it'll encourage abuse, where there are so many better options.

I reckon jumping at ghosts with the extremes this is going to. 3 perk points for a worse version of the cloak will make this an irrelevance.

#25 Learner

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 06:24 AM

I've gone ahead and updated the initial post to mention another oddity that is counter-intuitive. This has to do with the highest negative is applied to Level 1 and then the negative is weakened for Level 2. Not only is it counter intuitive, that's also reversed when compared to other negatives on other Perks.

Keep in mind I not saying this Perk needs to be nerfed, just with how it's written initially there are issues that can be abused, and as more armors are added and possibly combined with other Perks the window for abuse will keep widening.

#26 butler

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 08:28 AM

turn the negatives around the way you like, the negative elements brought with the perk and the fact it takes 3 perk points to match the cloak keep in competitive with the cloak without making one or the other irrelevant by it's existence (in EL, see CotU versus mage skirt, where one is just objectively better).

#27 CoduX

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 10:29 AM

Been looking at this thread and this is what currently stands with this perk

- Can not be combined with life steal
- Tier 1/Tier 2/Tier 3 is at a 100% chance at mirroring back 3/6/12% of damage being given by a mob(s) after armor absorption.

What is being being looked at to change

- Tier 1/Tier 2/Tier 3 would go to a 100% chance at mirroring back 3/6/9% of damage being given by a mob(s) after armor absorption.

In theory, every single hit you take, you are ALWAYS dealing back damage to the mob, at a reduced rate.


Let me give you an example of what would happen currently, if you were to have this 3/6/9% perk ingame.
You are versing a RPF with the tier 3 perk which is a 100% of 9% of damage getting reflected back. Currently, with an a/d of 96 and 40's reaction/toughness and full Iron armor, you are getting hit for constant 30's+ (depending on the mob #roll and if it has a weapon or not, can change slightly up and down).

- Full Iron Armor gives you a 13/20 armor absorption
- Full Iron Armor with moon medallion gives you 17/24 armor absorption

If being hit with full Iron armor w/ moon medallion and they are constant 30's, in reality you are being hit for 50+ each hit before armor absorption. The 9% reflected damage is from the initial hit, which is 50's, not the damage you take which is calculated after the armor absorption.
If you round it so you are getting hit to 50, and with 50*9/100, you would have a 9% chance of reflecting back only 4.5 damage (rounded up to 5 damage reflected back). So only 9% of damage every time you get hit, you are dealing back 5 damage...seems like that is nerfed too much.

Looking at these % chances and what can come in the future with future mobs/items, I feel like this can be slightly changed.

I would like to propose the follow variation

- Can not be combined with Life Steal perk (I feel like this is just set in stone no matter what)
- Tier 1/Tier 2/Tier 3 would go to 100% chance of dealing back 4/8/12% damage to a mob.

This gives us a new reflection damage back against current high-end invaded mobs of full iron armor w/ moon medallion while still being hit for 30's with tier 3 perk at 6 damage being reflected back per hit being given. This seems more fair with end-game mobs and future mobs as well (we all know learner will be releasing RPB's soon (rabid phantom beavers) Posted Image Posted Image )

The issue which learner stated previously is that you can just stand there with a tank build and just have them reflect back and die.
To be frankly honest, you can just stand there with a serp sword and stars medallion up to armed skeleton & 1 shot due to sword damage & added dmg from the medallion (possibly even female gob if high enough might). I don't think this will be a problem..mirror really is being used for the bosses/fluffy+ mobs that continuously hit you for hit amounts of damage.

Anymore issues with this?

P.S Another possible formula is 5/10/15 which at Tier 3 is 7.5, which would round up to 8 damage being reflected back. Is this another possible formula that looks good on paper, or starting to get too OP with players who are tanks?

CoduX

#28 butler

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:02 AM

View PostCoduX, on 02 May 2018 - 10:29 AM, said:

<snip>
The issue which learner stated previously is that you can just stand there with a tank build and just have them reflect back and die.
To be frankly honest, you can just stand there with a serp sword and stars medallion up to armed skeleton & 1 shot due to sword damage & added dmg from the medallion (possibly even female gob if high enough might). I don't think this will be a problem..mirror really is being used for the bosses/fluffy+ mobs that continuously hit you for hit amounts of damage.
<Snip>

Tbh mirror tanking a boss is possible, but it takes longer and is less resource efficient than just getting other people to shoot/hit the mob. I could kill a giga with mirror, but it's a pain, it wastes a lot of my resources, and you do better out of it with 2 other people supporting you. Kaddy, who has done a hell of a lot of them solo, did end up doing far more with a team when i team was more forthcoming because it's not really worth the hassle mirroring those mobs. The ones that i can see it making a difference are really the mobs where mirror isn't really needed, like udar and cyce (mobs where you'll still do infinitely more damage with swords/bows), where it's just a bit of a boon, or for regular fluffies, not really any of the exceptionally high end things, as it's not fantastically cost effective. Half of what makes the mirror so good is it just gets read of a damage tick i should have got.

Will also say, out of half the gigas i tanked, i only got about half the kill counters for them, because other people did more damage than i did with the mirror.

#29 Learner

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Posted 02 May 2018 - 11:08 AM

Kill counters as far as I'm concerned fail anytime more then on player is involved anyways .. see http://https://www.o...point-counters/ for one possible change, though very complex. Client side counters are even worse.

#30 PandemiC

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 07:51 AM

View PostLearner, on 08 March 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Mirror:
(Cannot be combined with Life Steal)
(Rounding away from zero, .5 would round to 1, .4 round to 0)
(would mirror the amount the mob is about to hit, not affected by perk users stats, and hit back, eg. if mob hits you for 10 and you absorb all that damage, it will still mirror back)
3% Mirror - 1pp - +3% of all incoming damage mirrored, -1 armor every 2 mobs
6% Mirror - 1pp - +6% of all incoming damage mirrored, -1 armor every 4 mobs
12% Mirror - 1pp - +12% of all incoming damage mirrored


As I understand it, reflecting 6 damage, but still taking 60 damage is totally f'ing useless.

This perk is totally getting nerfed from it's current state, I'll tell you why.

Currently, the Mirror Cape gives you a 10% chance to 'dodge' and reflect damage in the form of mirror. You ARE NOT hit by the incoming hit.
Currently the Body Piercing cape gives you a 10% chance to 'hit' regardless of opponents defense.

Any monster that cannot be killed by a tank with a mirror (cape/) perk will be easily outdone by a fighter build with BP, especially with the proposed 'pure fighting' perks. Fact. You are forgetting that the perks you have proposed mean that a tank CANNOT wield weapons to reap the rewards of their perks (e.g. bonus armor).
It would take 41 'turns' to take down a 250 HP mob hitting you at 60 per hit with this perk, for a tank.
It would similarly take 9~ 'turns' to take down a 250 HP mob, with you hitting it for 30 per hit.

#31 Kaddy

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 11:38 AM

I killed at least 10 gigas alone, NONE of them covered the cost of supplies.

I killed ALOT more gigas with people, NONE of them covered the costs either.

So I ended up doing with people since it’s already a loss then after some point, just left it to poof. :D

#32 butler

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 01:11 PM

View PostKaddy, on 08 May 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

I killed at least 10 gigas alone, NONE of them covered the cost of supplies.

I killed ALOT more gigas with people, NONE of them covered the costs either.

So I ended up doing with people since it’s already a loss then after some point, just left it to poof. Posted Image

I did tests on test server via giga. I burnt at least twice the amount of things and took 3 times as long

Doesn't make up for good hitters or rangers :P

#33 ohmygod

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Posted 26 February 2019 - 05:16 AM

Quote

I totally feel the Mirror Perk as originally proposed should NOT be implemented, instead discuss a better way to handle it!

Bump and discuss?




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