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Quality Control on Customs


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#1 butler

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 07:58 AM

So I propose that we stop people adding customs of a quality that isn't at a level where you wouldn't add it as an official item in game, so that we have an assured level of quality to the customs. As part of this, I'd also say have a thread that keeps track of all customs in the game so that the playerbase can have somewhere to argue if a custom is just... over the top, or out of place, or just plainly bad.

The reason is that this is a default setting on the game to have the customs, and as such, they directly represent the quality of the product. They are an official part of the game since they are officially supported and default part of the experience. If it was unofficial, you could have any old shit (sanic, memes, etc. or crappy flame armour), because that's not a part of the base experience, and requires effort to activate and witness.

Here are 3-4 examples (I'd add screenies, but I have the customs off because of some bad ones):
  • Imo, Aine and Alddras small pack/fur cloak, etc. skins are within the games current artistic style, are subtle, and fit within the world, and don't bring you out of the experience. They look like they naturally fit in the universe.
  • BattleWizards backpack is decently drawn and done, but it's an object pretending to be 3D whilst obviously on a 2D mesh. So here the issue is more that the texture isn't awful, it's more it doesn't work with the model it's placed on, and looks unprofessional because of that. The fact it's a 1900 backpack on a character from the 1200-1600s isn't quite as off putting than a piece of paper trying to pretend it's a fully fledged 3 dimensional item. I'd say the same thing if it were wings or "spikes" drawn onto armour.
  • Ohmygods customs are the ones I've heard the most murmurings about and the main reason i disabled customs, because it's just a lot of red thrown on top of the iron plate mail, and stands out like a sore thumb in the game. It lacks subtlety, it lacks much nuance and is distracting in the wrong sense. It doesn't catch my attention because it's interesting and beautiful, it catches my attention by assaulting me with it's, failing the find a better word, obnoxiousness. It just doesn't fit on any level. I argue this with anything not really stylistically considered.
To counter act L's inevitable "if you don't like it, make them a custom to fix it." Main problem is they obviously do like it, but it doesn't fit, and as a part of the game that's on by default, it reflects on the games quality as a part of it's original experience. It's the games issue when a bad custom knocks you out of the world.

Consider this for a new player. What's their reaction would be between ELs main server and the unofficial customs mirror if they trade it first. One looks like a game, the other looks a bit like a shit show at times. Same argument: Between an official valve L4D, TF2 or CS server and one of the unofficial meme servers, there is a difference in how you perceive those, and it'd be very strange if you had those memer servers as one of your default valve servers.

If i came in as a newbie and saw the most outrageous example of the current customs, I'd just think this is some shitty my-first-game or hobby project because that skin that i see as default, and as far as i know, is a part of the game as the whole, looks shit, and with the old graphics, I'd think it's just a random mod project.

I'm not attacking any of the players here, I don't really care about who they are, but the customs as a graphical element of the game on default NEEDS to have a level of quality. They just need to fit with, if boiled down:
  • Would you use this for an item in it's own right?
  • Does it fit stylistically with the world (Not obnoxious or the wrong art style)?
  • Does it work at a basic level (if it's representing a flat object, is it flat, if it's 3D, does it look 3D, if it's attached to part of the body, is it attached)?


#2 Learner

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 09:47 AM

For color thrown on top of armor ... that actually fits some of the things done in Medieval Europe and other countries at varying levels of quality. Stuff like Coat of Arms often had more attention paid to them, but some coat of arms were fairly simple (often low ranking nobles).

Also, customs don't allow changing the actual 3D Mesh and so far nobody has submitted a new modil to consider using for pack(s) that is done properly in 3D, so if someone was to have something that looks like a pack, they are limited by the existing 3D model.

If you are trying to add a quality check, then the community would need to find someone they trust to handle the quality and consider if the cost of customs should be raised so they earn a plat per review. My review isn't about quality, but about being appropriate (i.e. no string bikinis). I figure if they want a junk custom and look stupid that's their problem not mine.

#3 AlddrA

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 09:52 AM

This is a game....fantasy......there were no feros, dcw, mcw, dragons, etc... in the 1200 century.   Customs are also fantasy, they are not relevant to the game.  They are only done for the wearers likesPosted Image

#4 Learner

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 10:10 AM

Is it worthwhile to add a voting system on customs as well as adding a Top100 entry for how the votes for a player go?

#5 AlddrA

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 10:21 AM

Is it worthwhile to add a voting system on customs as well as adding a Top100 entry for how the votes for a player go?



NO!!!!

#6 Warlock

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 11:34 AM

View PostAlddrA, on 27 April 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

This is a game....fantasy......there were no feros, dcw, mcw, dragons, etc... in the 1200 century.

Wth, my whole life is a lie

Really though, I understand where butler is coming from, to newbies entirely to the EL/OL game, it could present an obvious objection/judgement

However i also kind of agree with L, thats it's their problem if they want to look like filthy peasants

#7 EatsAllLife

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 03:28 PM

View PostLearner, on 27 April 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:


Also, customs don't allow changing the actual 3D Mesh and so far nobody has submitted a new modil to consider using for pack(s) that is done properly in 3D, so if someone was to have something that looks like a pack, they are limited by the existing 3D model.


Personally, I do not want to wear a backpack while fighting or harvesting. I am perfectly fine using a new cloak design. But not packing it a backpack... it imho... looks stupid for the game setting...
~Eats

#8 ohmygod

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 07:53 PM

Quote

the main reason i disabled customs,
Solved?

Do not take this personally, but I have come to realize that your posted opinions don't mean jack shit 90% of the time to most active players.

Please don't let this be you :)
Posted Image


I kinda like my customs, else i would not have paid for them. Red hides the blood spatters quite nicely Posted Image

#9 PandemiC

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 06:15 AM

I have nothing against you, but it is just a little OTT :P

#10 butler

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 07:45 AM

View PostLearner, on 27 April 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

For color thrown on top of armor ... that actually fits some of the things done in Medieval Europe and other countries at varying levels of quality. Stuff like Coat of Arms often had more attention paid to them, but some coat of arms were fairly simple (often low ranking nobles).
<snip>
Typically they used cloth over the armour, and it wasn't just a random block of crap colouring. Coats of arms, or even a tasteful element of the colour coating of cloth, that's okay. But again, if it's naff, then it reflects both on the player and the game.

Quote

<snip>
I figure if they want a junk custom and look stupid that's their problem not mine.
Yeah, but you're packaging it as part of your game, and lower quality ones reflect badly on the game. We don't have as contemptuously awful ones as EL, but there are ones heading to the direction of just making the game look... well, not great. It's like if you got a multipack of something, and something bads in it, it reflect badly on the brand of the item, and the brand packing it up with others. It's part of what you're "selling" by default, so you want to have an assured level of quality.

View PostAlddrA, on 27 April 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

This is a game....fantasy......there were no feros, dcw, mcw, dragons, etc... in the 1200 century.   Customs are also fantasy, they are not relevant to the game.  They are only done for the wearers likesPosted Image
If they are not relevant to the game, why are they in the game? If they are only for the wearer, why does everyone else see them by default? :P

I'm not sure what's the problem with having a vehicle to voice and vet ones that might be going to far, and kind of make the game look worse than it is.

View Postohmygod, on 27 April 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

Quote

the main reason i disabled customs,
Solved?
It's on by default, talking about people first impressions of game, and how a shit execution kind of will push you off. Tried LE, and the absolute clusterfuck of some things there graphically put me off. It didn't look like it was done at a quality level consistently. There was some great changes and some really awful changes graphically.

Don't really want that in OL via people bad customs.

View Postohmygod, on 27 April 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

Do not take this personally, but I have come to realize that your posted opinions don't mean jack shit 90% of the time to most active players.
I mean i start and add to discussions rather than posting memes. I've not really seen a constructive post by you. Might be worth turning that around?

Had these opinions since customs added. I generally want/expect a level of quality from my games. I also generally want the games to have enough respect for themselves that they won't let any old shit be packed into them. I want the game to be the best it can be, and it doesn't help if we start getting outrageously shit customs.

Also, don't hate anyone in the game, hate requires you to care an awful lot more about the annoying people.

View Postohmygod, on 27 April 2018 - 07:53 PM, said:

I kinda like my customs, else i would not have paid for them. Red hides the blood spatters quite nicely Posted Image
Yeah, i know you like your customs. But the game should have standards, really. If L is just checking for appropriateness, we going to let someone have flame armour, or other just purely tasteless additions. From what i understood at the time of the original custom poll, there was going to be an element of quality control, rather than just going "well it's not lingerie, so it's fine."

I'll make an analogy then:
  • Steam used to stand for quality, and be where games "made it"
  • Steam opened the floodgates, and now there is a lot of shovel ware, and as valve calls them "fake games"
  • Steam, as the vehicle that houses and stocks these, is now tangibly tainted by these bad games.
or
  • A Magazine posts good quality articles
  • Magazine has an article that is entirely unprofessional, and includes undisclosed advertorials.
  • Reflected badly on the author, the magazine and the editor
And on a side note:

View PostEatsAllLife, on 27 April 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

<snip>
Personally, I do not want to wear a backpack while fighting or harvesting. I am perfectly fine using a new cloak design. But not packing it a backpack... it imho... looks stupid for the game setting...
~Eats
Yeah i kind of argued if they had to do that, it should be a sack or other sort of period bag that would be fastened by the waist, or strung over shoulder and lying low by the small of the back.

Backpacks kind of look like a 19th century school childs item, looks really out of place (especially in full armour, just kind of breaks the world if it's not consistently using elements like that from more modern times. I'd say a straight backpack would fit more with EL since they have mines and such)

#11 ohmygod

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 11:45 AM

I choose to refrain from supplying my thoughts in response to the self apointed fashionista, and let this topic die the death it deserves.

#12 butler

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 05:25 AM

View Postohmygod, on 28 April 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

I choose to refrain from supplying my thoughts
You've not really added anything so far so no loss, genuinely. From what I can see you're thoughts were:
  • Nobody cares what you post butler (except some people do, and you do, since you feel compelled to reply and disparage me)
  • Funny Will Ferrel meme, lmao roflcopter so relevant.
  • I like my customs (which is not the point of this, the point is not making the game look shit by making a dissonance in art styles)

View Postohmygod, on 28 April 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

in response to the self apointed fashionista,
I am a teuchter who grew up on a croft and have worked in fields, and nobody i know would say i have an ounce of fashion. Love personal attacks though, means you genuinely have no good points to go back at me with, if you're stooping to the lowest wrung of the hierarchy of arguments.

I got nothing against you. There are other customs, now that I switched them back on, by people I genuinely give a shit about that I'd say would need to go because they are just stylistically out of place in the universe.

View Postohmygod, on 28 April 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

and let this topic die the death it deserves.
's funny.

Anywho.

Main question: What's wrong with asking that items every player will see not have a standard to at least look in place in the universe, and not be the wrong style.

If you're making a game, the last thing you want to do is have lots of conflicting styles fighting one another and making the whole thing look farcical. Some examples:
  • White flames on a red iron helmet
  • Cartoon mugs on a cape.
On a second note, without solid guidelines, with customs as default, they can make it difficult to tell what the other person is wearing:
  • Recolours make it hard to distinguish at a glance (say recolour leather boots black, makes it harder to tell if they have boots on or greaves or what depending on armour)
  • Cape colours slightly off makes it hard to know wtf is going on since that's the only distinguishing mark
What I'm generally saying is pretty much what the original proposition was under:

View PostBiteSize, on 08 December 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

<snip>
I propose the following.

Rules:

1. Clothing must be in the medieval theme, tasteful, and of high quality.
2. Any skin showing must be natural, tasteful, and respectable. (No exceptions!)
3. Poor quality artwork will not be accepted.
4. No logos, copyrighted items, or other people’s artwork. (No Superhero’s etc.)(Guild logo/crest acceptable)
Using OL artwork is allowed, as long as it’s tasteful and not meant in any disrespectful way.
5. Combat items (armour, weapons, combat-centric capes) must be easily recognizable.
6. Requests will be subject to approval. Remember, this will be “official”.
<snip>

I think that was the correct outline by ash, and ash makes a bloody good point about it.

Out of place, low quality, and stylistically out of place work makes the game look bad as a whole. We wouldn't accept these standards in maps. We wouldn't accept them for equipment that is official. Why are people so keen to have a facet of the game be worse because they want obnoxious out of place armour.

#13 Learner

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 08:02 AM

While we can look at Medieval for inspiration, there are also other older cultures that need to be looked at for inspiration since after all this is a Fantasy world!. That means there could a very wide range of cultural norms that will be presented as well as oddities from Adventurers that may want to stand out in their own way, even if they decide to dress more like Vikings, Mongols, Zulu, Celtic, or Gaelic warriors.

#14 CoduX

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Posted 29 April 2018 - 08:04 AM

And this folks, is why there is barely any new content in the game Posted Image

#15 butler

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 05:53 AM

View PostLearner, on 29 April 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

While we can look at Medieval for inspiration, there are also other older cultures that need to be looked at for inspiration since after all this is a Fantasy world!. That means there could a very wide range of cultural norms that will be presented as well as oddities from Adventurers that may want to stand out in their own way, even if they decide to dress more like Vikings, Mongols, Zulu, Celtic, or Gaelic warriors.

I understand, however, you's are missing the key point of artistic consistency. Something cartoonish doesn't fit into a world purporting to be realistic. You are also not addressing that some people customs make it very hard to know what armour/cape they have on, or if they have armour or capes on.

I'm also not sure where i said only medieval (if i ever did), the main point is that customs should be expressive but not stick out like a sore thumb as being someone spending some time in paint. It is the equivalent of buying unity assets and throwing them into a game and not changing them: you get a lot of different styles and it makes the world not gel together, just look like a mish mash of random crap.

Again, I will highlight, Alddras Small/Large pack (not sure which one it is) where the original texture is visible, has a design that is artistically in tune with the game (it looks like it could have been official), is basically what we should be wanting from customs, if they are default.

I've not seen one custom that purports to be of really any type of period armour or culture. The only guy i actually know who's done this was a greek called ROKK and that was ancient greek patterns. What I see is mostly just random bitmaps and colour changes, that don't fit artistically and stylistically in the universe. I'm not sure what's hard to grasp about wanting a universe where it looks cohesive. Do you want customs to make the game artistically into DeviantArt, with maybe 5 tasteful, skillful, and just plain good work, and a million bits of crap.

Can someone also actually answer some of the points, because so far the answers have been:
  • I like my customs, doesn't matter if they look like they don't belong to the game
  • It's fantasy (ignoring that that isn't a cart blanche get out clause for art styles clashing, and ignoring that the best fantasy universes have a very clearly thought out world, artistic style and try to make the world cohesive. Nioh/Dark Souls/Discworld/Warhammer/Baldurs Gate have very different worlds, but all their art looks like it belongs in that one universe, and those universes have rules as to what they show, and stylistically how they show it)

You're just making the game look like it's less professionally put together, and making it appear worse on initial appearance than EL. Aren't we trying to make the game better than EL?

#16 Learner

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 06:09 AM

My comments about needing to think about more then just Medieval were relater the what you quoted item #1

Quote

1. Clothing must be in the medieval theme, tasteful, and of high quality.

As for the artistic aspect, I already responded to that

View PostLearner, on 27 April 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

...
If you are trying to add a quality check, then the community would need to find someone they trust to handle the quality and consider if the cost of customs should be raised so they earn a plat per review. My review isn't about quality, but about being appropriate (i.e. no string bikinis). I figure if they want a junk custom and look stupid that's their problem not mine.


#17 butler

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:20 PM

View PostLearner, on 30 April 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

My comments about needing to think about more then just Medieval were relater the what you quoted item #1

Quote

1. Clothing must be in the medieval theme, tasteful, and of high quality.
Missed that on reread.

View PostLearner, on 30 April 2018 - 06:09 AM, said:

As for the artistic aspect, I already responded to that
<snip>
Was more directed at the other players who seem to miss how important that is to any visual medium.

Tbh I'd just say have them listed on a forum, have a number of individuals who understand art direction, and have them point flaws out and try to help reconcile what people want their customs to be with what the games current art style is (much as you find in art/graphic design forums, people giving tips on how to get things to "fit"). I'd have said have Ash do it but sadly he's not here anymore.

With a custom, you get a thread maybe in a subforum so that people can put input on how to improve the customs so they fit with the world and greenlight when it's to a level.

I'd be happy to do it, but i know there will be plenty of people who'll get pissed off at me for it if I did, judging by the responses.

#18 Learner

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Posted 30 April 2018 - 01:31 PM

Oh, what's acceptable can get worse so easily ... think about Mordor as an example!

#19 butler

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 07:53 AM

View PostLearner, on 30 April 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

Oh, what's acceptable can get worse so easily ... think about Mordor as an example!

Tbh, things can get so much worse, i kind of just want something to head it off before someone pushes the boat out with something truly spectacularly awful. (Know it's a joke but, meh).

#20 Learner

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Posted 01 May 2018 - 08:55 AM

View Postbutler, on 01 May 2018 - 07:53 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 30 April 2018 - 01:31 PM, said:

Oh, what's acceptable can get worse so easily ... think about Mordor as an example!

Tbh, things can get so much worse, i kind of just want something to head it off before someone pushes the boat out with something truly spectacularly awful. (Know it's a joke but, meh).

Nothing from stopping you from talking directly to the people who you think have an ugly design, or to give them a hand for a better one.either.




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