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Increasing the Level Cap


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#1 PandemiC

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 08:57 AM

Hi all,

There seems to be a lot of discussion around raising the Level Cap recently.

The general consensus seems to be raising the level cap to about 120.

Let' have a chat about the - " Unintended side effects ".

Apologies if this contributes to your confusion.



[Learner @ 6]: you obviously don't understand how multiple things changing confuse people

Edited by PandemiC, 17 May 2018 - 07:49 PM.


#2 Aine

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:10 AM

Great work guys! Really hope this goes somewhere.

#3 Learner

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:17 AM

I haven't looked at the numbers in detail, but given how 'easy' most people think it is to reach level 80, I think the emphasis on the changes should be after that, not starting as early as the new proposed rate does.

Will be looking at it in more detail later, just initial gut reaction.

#4 PandemiC

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 09:32 AM

View PostLearner, on 03 May 2018 - 09:17 AM, said:

I haven't looked at the numbers in detail, but given how 'easy' most people think it is to reach level 80, I think the emphasis on the changes should be after that, not starting as early as the new proposed rate does.

Will be looking at it in more detail later, just initial gut reaction.

I don't think L80 is that easy to reach at all. Different skills take a different amount of time. I actually haven't hit any skill over 80 yet, apart from OA at 89.

I have done quite a lot of maths based on current exp rates, etc. It'd take me over 80 days to train from 70, to 90 A/D in the current curve, at 5-6 hours of SOLID 600k exp/hour training per day. That is not easy to maintain, nor is that fun. Not for a game that is currently pick up/put down. It's something crazy like 2.5 years of yew harvesting to reach 90 harvesting.

Also looking at it from a current-game-design perspective; you have chimerans not being killed on C1 due to being OP. Invade giants that can't be killed etc etc... This is a median in my eyes.

#5 butler

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:00 AM

It's 70 that's pretty easy to hit, I know it's not exhaustive, but on Top 100, which requires players have played in the last year, only 76 players over level 65 attack, 42 over 77, so there is quite a big dip between 60s and 70s. There are 10-15 people in 90s.

Also the giants can be killed panda, me with omg hitting killed one, me with aine/dan killed 3 more. I mean, they push it, but they are doable in TD.

TBH I'm neutral in terms of doing this, but I'd prefer it capping at 120 if done than 125, just my opinion.

#6 PandemiC

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:11 AM

View Postbutler, on 03 May 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Also the giants can be killed panda, me with omg hitting killed one, me with aine/dan killed 3 more. I mean, they push it, but they are doable in TD.

Okay, let me re-phrase. You have giants that can be killed by 4 top A/D players, with 1 person tanking, and it has to be in TD which is apparently set to be scrapped. Is that any better than the MCW in GP? You also only managed to kill 4 in what, an hour...? Also, what was your resource wastage like.

Don't mean to sound defensive, but nitpicking something that small............

#7 Learner

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:21 AM

View PostPandemiC, on 03 May 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

View Postbutler, on 03 May 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Also the giants can be killed panda, me with omg hitting killed one, me with aine/dan killed 3 more. I mean, they push it, but they are doable in TD.

Okay, let me re-phrase. You have giants that can be killed by 4 top A/D players, with 1 person tanking, and it has to be in TD which is apparently set to be scrapped. Is that any better than the MCW in GP? You also only managed to kill 4 in what, an hour...? Also, what was your resource wastage like.

Don't mean to sound defensive, but nitpicking something that small............
My goal before deleting TD is to make sure we have an Aldath map that can replace it first unless the Community thinks otherwise.

#8 CoduX

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:27 AM

We NEED a cap increase to move forward with items, mobs, invasions, spawns..those just off the top of my head.
This is not even a wipe, it's a boost for your levels! A chance to train/mix with new things!

I even explained this to my dad earlier on when he asked what I was doing and he doesn't even play games at all and in his own words quoted

''That is a good idea, people who have to do the same things repetitively are more likely to just get too bored and leave. There is no fun if you aren't getting levels once every blue moon. If you have new things to do and new levels to train on, that will probably keep the current players who play this bloody game you seem to sit on all day. Even probably interest others to come play this game or make old player return with re-new interest. I wouldn't play it not because I'm too busy, but because it just looks too boring doing repetitive things..I dunno how you don't get bored Tim".

This is from someone who has never played EL/OL or any game for that matter for an odd 15 years. I think this speaks for itself.

#9 butler

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:36 AM

View PostPandemiC, on 03 May 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

<snip>
Okay, let me re-phrase. You have giants that can be killed by 4 top A/D players, with 1 person tanking, and it has to be in TD which is apparently set to be scrapped. Is that any better than the MCW in GP? You also only managed to kill 4 in what, an hour...? Also, what was your resource wastage like.
<snip>
Nah, didn't need top 4 a/d, and MCW are a lot easier in GP/RoT, took maybe 5-10 per giant, resources not too disimilar to chucky/bit better than giganta. Was only saying that because it was a bit of an exaggeration, in what was otherwise a very well argued and grounded posts, is all.

I still reckon you can kill them in KF, would just be a bigger resource burn as you said. Anyway, back to my hovel.

Would also say that i got demotivated from training around mid 70s because it was starting to get to over a week of solid just training to get a level and wasn't enjoying the challenge as much as i was before, to reinforce CoduX's point.

Also it's Alroth, the continent Learner, Aldath is one of Zians maps.

#10 PandemiC

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 10:54 AM

I see butler; the exaggeration was intended :)

Edited by PandemiC, 17 May 2018 - 07:46 PM.


#11 Warlock

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 11:23 AM

View Postbutler, on 03 May 2018 - 10:36 AM, said:

I still reckon you can kill them in KF, would just be a bigger resource burn as you said. Anyway, back to my hovel.

https://www.flickr.c...08/22486039218/

https://www.flickr.c...08/22512209959/

https://www.flickr.c...08/22878373486/

Fully agree with increasing level cap, have been trying to push for this for quite some time now, just never had anyone to work with the formula.

Will open so much more room for growth, we have so many other creature types that go unused. Finally get to rework the Frost trolls/cockatrice/yeti's etc. Plus its always good actually getting lvls and not like 3months for 2 millimeters on the exp bar.

Good work Panda

#12 WaterBottle

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:05 PM

I generally don't have an opinion on this as a "I like/dislike this" but I will throw in my thoughts/discussion comments to help think this through.

I mean in terms of perk points, if it remains 1 per 10 OAs, we'd get 2 additional points at most (10 vs 12 total). I don't think that's too drastic, but I'll dwell on it more.

What was the desired effect on PPs? Basically I'm looking at total PPs old OA level vs total PPs new OA level (e.g. the additional PPs we'd get 'immediately' if this system gets implemented). Not saying I lean one way or another because I haven't thought about it yet; I just feel like it's another topic to get opinions on with this change.

I dunno how to put this in a elegant way so I'll be blunt, but don't take it in an angry or disproving tone: This basically doesn't have a noticeable effect on non-combat gameplay other than they fail less/harvest maybe fractions of a millisecond faster right?

#13 Learner

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:08 PM

The biggest side effects outside of combat are PickPoints, Perkpoints, and Carry. All which coul dbe tuned if needed. At a glance at this time PP would be the top one of the three to adjust.

#14 Warlock

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:34 PM

Could always change cap of certain PickPoints

#15 Learner

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 05:42 PM

View PostWarlock, on 03 May 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

Could always change cap of certain PickPoints
Could, but simpler to change PP/OA ... and at least that is a floating point number to allow for small changes. Capping PP overall currently isn't in the system but could be added, why PP/OA is in the server.def file.

#16 CoduX

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 06:41 PM

I couldn't hurt to increase a lot of the attributes to 60 instead of 50 to allow for more pp. But will think about this more later and reply with said thoughts

#17 Learner

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 06:45 PM

Could easily hurt ... have to look at the entire balance of the mobs if players can have a bunch more PP or we raise the cap. Adjusting PP/level & balancing could be changed later on as an option. The fewer variables that change (in thais case max PP & XAttr cap) the simpler for players to comprehend and test.

#18 butler

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 07:19 AM

View PostWaterBottle, on 03 May 2018 - 05:05 PM, said:

<snip>
I dunno how to put this in a elegant way so I'll be blunt, but don't take it in an angry or disproving tone: This basically doesn't have a noticeable effect on non-combat gameplay other than they fail less/harvest maybe fractions of a millisecond faster right?
Lower fail chances on the biggies. I'd say it'd have less impact on potioning/crafting as most items there we have dozens of players well above the rec levels for most items. I reckon it'd have maybe more of an impact on manufacture/ranging/magic/summoning. Let me explain.

Currently, Manufacture has a lot more high end items around the points (these are less essential, but still) such as the glowy swords, which start at roughly high 60s to 70s in manu. Would have a reasonable impact on the fail rates on those i reckon, as those with solid levels to make those will have boosted levels by the curve.

Ranging, simply a possibility, afaik, the top 10 are roughly mid 30s to 50 range, so won't affect it immediately, will just mean past that 50 mark into 60s, players would see a bit of a better return. Probably more mild than others but.

Magic, mostly would have a small boost which is good for restores and such, as there are a couple dozen people in/around 50s up to around 70s who'll get a slightly nicer return from the curve changes.

Summoning will get boosted quite a bit for those that have the 50-60+ in the skill, which would be interesting when summoning gets reworked.

Quick thoughts on the non a/d/oa skills involved.

#19 WaterBottle

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Posted 04 May 2018 - 02:44 PM

Just in case people wanted to see a quick PP comparison between the current system and this new proposed one: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Basically took the old/new level comparison from the initial post and found the baseline PPs for the old system we all know (1.8 PP * current level). From there took what would be the new level from the proposed changes and did both (1.7 PP * new level) and (1.6 PP * new level). Then highlighted the differences in PPs

#20 PandemiC

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Posted 06 May 2018 - 12:07 PM

View PostWaterBottle, on 04 May 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

Just in case people wanted to see a quick PP comparison between the current system and this new proposed one: https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

Thanks WaterBottle.

Edited by PandemiC, 17 May 2018 - 07:46 PM.





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