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Cooldown (Mob Effect)


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#1 butler

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 10:49 AM

Yesterday we had a discussion on @@1 about cooldown as it relates to Rabid Phantom Fluffies and White Tigers.

Cooldown, in general, is not a bad idea for a mob effect, same as Mana Burn, as it gives a bit of extra thought to how you approach the mobs or invasions. The prime issue is that it effects all your inventory items, and can mean you are perma locked in cd.

Before I go any further into the issue, I will explain what prompted this, and explain a little in terms of how cooldown works, starting with how it works:
  • When a mob hits you, it rolls the chance to have cooldown put on your inventory
  • With RPF, it rolls for Mana Burn first, then for Cooldown.
  • WT have the highest roll chance.
The only ways to reduce cooldown chance is to reduce your hit chance, so:
  • Reaction Cross Attributes
  • Defense Levels
  • Defence Potions (+5)
  • Uni Medallion (+4)
  • Serpent Sword (+4)
And I was on an RPF with Max Reaction, Serpent Sword, fresh Defense Potion (which ends with me 78+9), and with a MoL instead of the uni med (because the extra hp/heals from it during it tend to make it easier to outlive a cooldown, especially by giving healers space to heal), and with DueCE healing me for 70s, and got stuck in an endless loop of cooldowns, that killed me.

The source of the issue is that the cooldowns last so long and effect every singly usable item in your inventory, and there isn't really anything much past inflating your defense that you can do to counter it as an effect. This is different to Mana Burn, where you have a about 3-4 different options to tackle it, such as going in without any mana, going iron plate with Magic Protection, MDing them (since they don't have a huge mana pool), etc. You can also react, and do things in response to mana burns. With cooldown, there isn't really a "strategy" per se to protect yourself from it.

Why is this bad? Well, when you die to cooldown, you don't really feel it's your fault that you died, you feel it's the game just punishing you for no reason. When i get MBed to the point I die, it's my fault, it feels like it's my fault, because i didn't do anything to stop it, i didn't manage mana, and i didn't do the strategies to beat them. Ditto when you get overpowered by mobs: your fault for allowing that situation.

Solutions to make it a bit more of a balanced effect:
  • Choose random items in inventory to cooldown, rather than the whole inventory
  • Have items that can reduce the effects
  • Reduce the level of cooldown it does.
I know cooldown is a bit oddly coded, but it seems to suffer from the lazy design that EL had in spades.

#2 ohmygod

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 05:03 PM

Quote

with DueCE healing me for 70s, and got stuck in an endless loop of cooldowns, that killed me.
huh you still died?

I thought strat was to tackle these with a healer....you had best in the game healing you

#3 butler

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Posted 07 May 2018 - 05:49 PM

View Postohmygod, on 07 May 2018 - 05:03 PM, said:

Quote

with DueCE healing me for 70s, and got stuck in an endless loop of cooldowns, that killed me.
huh you still died?

I thought strat was to tackle these with a healer....you had best in the game healing you

yeah, that's kind of the issue lol. Literally did everything possible, and died, and occassionaly you can do bollocks all to counter it, and you'll do it easy, because you only got cd once, or cooldowned twice with a gap. Issue is when you are stuck with in cd for over half a minute to nearly a whole minute. At that point the healer can just run out of mana, or get a spell fail.

It doesn't feel good dying when you did as much as you could and you die of no fault of your own

#4 CoduX

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 12:40 AM

Agreed here! Current CD with RPF/WH/tigers is very OP and should be tuned so, like butler said, it doesn't feel like the game is punishing you for no reason for the fact that it exists.

#5 Kaddy

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 01:16 AM

Make a ring that deletes all cooldowns and make it have 15 second cooldown and make it mid-level cost that require some high level fighting item (lets say feros tail, add that item to the game) and high level crafting.

At some point you have to make a system which leads fighters and mixers trade eachother.

#6 ohmygod

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 03:51 AM

Quote

Make a ring that deletes all cooldowns and make it have 15 second cooldown and make it mid-level cost that require some high level fighting item (lets say feros tail, add that item to the game) and high level crafting.

Quote

Literally did everything possible, and died, and occassionaly you can do bollocks all to counter it, and you'll do it easy, because you only got cd once, or cooldowned twice with a gap. Issue is when you are stuck with in cd for over half a minute to nearly a whole minute. At that point the healer can just run out of mana, or get a spell fail

Nice Idea but, there is seemingly no limit to the number of times a player can be CDed by the individual mob especially if you/team take too long  killing them eg use ring ..next minute cded again and now ring is on 15 sec CD so facked up and in UW once again..

off topic:

Is it just me, or bears doing damage when they mana burn a new thing?

#7 PandemiC

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 07:09 AM

You could re-work the ring to act similar to Magic Immunity, except it 'Blocks any (mob) attack that will activate a cooldown on your inventory for X seconds'.

I'm for the idea of both reworking the mob effects & creating trade between fighters + mixers.

#8 butler

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 07:11 AM

View PostKaddy, on 08 May 2018 - 01:16 AM, said:

Make a ring that deletes all cooldowns and make it have 15 second cooldown and make it mid-level cost that require some high level fighting item (lets say feros tail, add that item to the game) and high level crafting.
Tbh I would put in a Medallion, or something that worked like point defence but for cooldown. I think having it as a crafting item would be a good shout as the perks coming into game seem to be largely devaluing pretty much all current high end craftables (gatherer perk is very cheap, excavator perk is basically cloak + harvester med, HP/Mana perks look like L's going to lock off the medallions).

I'd still generally say make it target certain items in inventory, as you generally get cooldown shared in classes, and that tends to be:
  • Mana Potions (EMP/SR)
  • Health Poitons (GHP/BR)
  • Skill Potions (Def/Mag/Att)
  • Accuracy/Evasion Potions
  • Food (Fruit/Veg/PoF)
  • Combat rings
  • Tele rings
These tend to be all the classes that you'd generally have (normally I don't have food nor acc/eva pots, but some do). Even if cooldown targetted one option, it's still 1/7 if you have all the various things you'd have, 1/5 if you're like me, 1/4 if you're going without skill potions)

If cooldown targetted just 1 or 2 items in inventory of different "classes" then i think it would generally work better as you could react. It'd still be nice to have something that acted as a limiter either way

View PostKaddy, on 08 May 2018 - 01:16 AM, said:

At some point you have to make a system which leads fighters and mixers trade eachother.
Agreed. There needs to be some high end craftables you need to fight high end mobs to get the ingredients from. That's definitely a key thing for pretty much anything that supersedes Serp/ Iron plate in time.

View Postohmygod, on 08 May 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

<snip>
Nice Idea but, there is seemingly no limit to the number of times a player can be CDed by the individual mob especially if you/team take too long  killing them eg use ring ..next minute cded again and now ring is on 15 sec CD so facked up and in UW once again..
There is a limit to cooldown, technically, with mana. However, mana scales with health on mobs, and problematically, often a bit more mana than mobs HP. This is generally a good thing, but RPF have quite a bit of HP, quite a large amount of mana, and pretty good magic resistance. Compared to bears, it's nearly impossible to MD them to the point they won't CD.

View Postohmygod, on 08 May 2018 - 03:51 AM, said:

<snip>
Is it just me, or bears doing damage when they mana burn a new thing?
Bears always do damage when Mana Burning, so long as you have mana, they will burn up some of your mana and some of your hp. I can't remember what it did in EL, but Mana Burn has worked like that for as long as I can remember in OL.

#9 Warlock

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:11 AM

Edited, didnt read full post

#10 Kaddy

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 11:23 AM

Don’t want to bother with quotes so I’ll just explain.

Actually you got the idea of mine. With MI being stupid amount of mana, ring of cdr would allow people do alot of things, don’t stick to RPFs cooldown.

Let’s say you are tanking a high end boss but need healer, this rings comes into the play and lets you make a decision, tank it with cost or not? It would allow you to double use mana pots or healing pots. Lets say you are out of mana and use emp, ring and emp again, there you have 100 mana back but you gotta decide if it is worth using.

And also, an 15 sec cooldown would save you in alot of rpf situations if you use your mind wisely but the drop would barely cover the cost.

My initial thought of cost of ring was to be around 250-500gc per ring. A higher price would just make it not worth to use.

My second idea was to make a medallion like butler said, but thought it would be too OP to be immuned for those kind of things forever. OR you could also make like butler said a personal counter for those meds lets say 10 use (like whistles in EL) and after 10 blocked cooldown or mana burn or mana drain w/e the med breaks.

But as all of other great ideas, nothing is going to change. :D

#11 butler

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 01:17 PM

View PostKaddy, on 08 May 2018 - 11:23 AM, said:

<snip>
My second idea was to make a medallion like butler said, but thought it would be too OP to be immuned for those kind of things forever. OR you could also make like butler said a personal counter for those meds lets say 10 use (like whistles in EL) and after 10 blocked cooldown or mana burn or mana drain w/e the med breaks.

But as all of other great ideas, nothing is going to change. Posted Image
Was thinking it would have random chance to block a cd.

Rings are interesting. Possible to do both, since there are multiple strategies that each promote




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