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Enhancing Spawn/Invasion Logic


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#1 Learner

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 07:39 AM

Recent internal changes and long term goals for Spawns & Invasions have combined in a way that planning has started on some upgrades to how Spawn Groups will be working.

A Spawn Group is the smallest level that IM's define to be used for Spawns & Invasions. It clusters together multiple mobs together and allows defining options and even a Boss.

Changes being planned or in progress include:
  • Allowing better control of the distance mobs like to stay around the boss. More specifically a smaller distance is allowed to help with cramped maps (like MG) or just to keep a tighter cluster of mobs. (already Live)
  • Optionally add additional extra Bosses from predefined lists of Bosses
  • Increasing the Boss Drops on the primary Boss based on the CL of the entire Spawn Group, not just the Boss. The current logic for the Bosses CL is being kept, but this will help add more when a Boss is in charge of a tough Spawn Group. Known risk of Boss Serping, but this will affect the stronger Bosses more then the easier to serp ones.
  • The proposed Kill Bonus logic posted about previously so that when a mob dies the Kill Bonus is split up smarter instead of sometimes being totally lost as long as the players that have been involved are still logged in. This is specially important on strong mobs & Bosses. see also https://www.other-li...-to-kill-bonus/
  • When there is no Boss or the Boss is killed, there will be an option to promote another mob in the group to act as a Boss for AI logic (such as keeping the group together). The promoted mob does NOT get buffed or extra drops, it's simply put in charge to act as a Boss. (already Live)
  • AI options using Damage Tracker information so that a Spawn Group can help itself more if desired.
  • AI option using Damage Tracker information so that one Spawn Group is biased to help another group. Specially helpful when one Spawn Group triggers another being spawned
The AI options using Damage Tracker include:
  • HelpBoss - the mobs will first look to see if then can attack players that have been hurting the effective Boss when they are trying to decide on what to do next. This is limited to players the mobs can actually see.
  • HelpSpawn - similar to HelpBoss except they check all other mobs in the same Spawn Group
  • HelpOtherSpawn - similar to HelpSpawn except another Spawn is specified to be helped out
These additional options are intended for the IM's to add more variety and smarts on how Spawn Groups work while the entire Spawn adding something to the primary Boss based on the entire Spawn, not just the Boss.

Keep in mind that how these options combine also adds some interesting options for the IM's, including improving how the proposed WorldBoss can work.

Additional thoughts, ideas, and comments?

#2 butler

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:42 AM

View PostLearner, on 08 May 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

<snip>
  • When there is no Boss or the Boss is killed, there will be an option to promote another mob in the group to act as a Boss for AI logic (such as keeping the group together). The promoted mob does NOT get buffed or extra drops, it's simply put in charge to act as a Boss. (already Live)
<snip>
Going to focus on just this one right now because I can't do a full response atm.

Some of the high level invasions, more the medium high, one tactic is to kill the boss to break up the high level horde mobs so that they can be taken down easily. This doesn't really work with top tier bosses like enola/giganta or ones with huge hp bars, where you basically kill all underlings unless the boss get seperated by terrain from it's horde.

I'd be selective on which invasions that promotion mechanic gets applied to, because it's interesting making that call on strategy for certain invasions about whether clearing all before boss, or taking out boss to make horde easier to clear.

#3 Learner

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 09:46 AM

View Postbutler, on 08 May 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 08 May 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

<snip>
  • When there is no Boss or the Boss is killed, there will be an option to promote another mob in the group to act as a Boss for AI logic (such as keeping the group together). The promoted mob does NOT get buffed or extra drops, it's simply put in charge to act as a Boss. (already Live)
<snip>
Going to focus on just this one right now because I can't do a full response atm.

Some of the high level invasions, more the medium high, one tactic is to kill the boss to break up the high level horde mobs so that they can be taken down easily. This doesn't really work with top tier bosses like enola/giganta or ones with huge hp bars, where you basically kill all underlings unless the boss get seperated by terrain from it's horde.

I'd be selective on which invasions that promotion mechanic gets applied to, because it's interesting making that call on strategy for certain invasions about whether clearing all before boss, or taking out boss to make horde easier to clear.
The idea of having these as options off by default as they are now. They are only applied selectively for the special cases where it's better to have the new logic for unusual cases.

#4 butler

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 01:36 PM

Yeah was more of a general comment to kind of ask for it to be done thoughtfully and with consideration when the IMs do decide to use it.

Also curios if you've looked at logic to make it so injured mob run into the centre of the mob, with full hp ones acting as a barrier to them, just as a natural progression of proposals and ideas you have outlined

#5 Learner

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 01:49 PM

View Postbutler, on 08 May 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

Yeah was more of a general comment to kind of ask for it to be done thoughtfully and with consideration when the IMs do decide to use it.

Also curios if you've looked at logic to make it so injured mob run into the centre of the mob, with full hp ones acting as a barrier to them, just as a natural progression of proposals and ideas you have outlined
I'll be looking at other options in the future, at the moment the Help* options are enhancements to the target selection logic as opposed to a new action, so simpler as the next step.

But, do you really want to teach the Boss to run away and hide if it gets hurt??

#6 butler

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 03:51 PM

Not boss, mostly just the lower level mobs, so they can heal up.

#7 Learner

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 04:00 PM

View Postbutler, on 08 May 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

Not boss, mostly just the lower level mobs, so they can heal up.
Why shouldn't the Boss also be willing to heal while you get swarmed by his aides?

#8 butler

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Posted 08 May 2018 - 06:34 PM

Was just clarifying what I was thinking about when i said that, and that i hadn't been thinking about that when i said that. Tbh I'm tired.

#9 ohmygod

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Posted 09 May 2018 - 01:19 AM

I liked your ants on EL, finding and raiding he ant hill/loot bag was fun. Good source of free fruit and other assorted items. I reckon the humanoids on the DL maps could be taught to do something similar and if players get too close to the loot bag then they call reinforcements etc.

Off topic I know but could not help but ponder how the natural mobs could be made better as well.

#10 BlakKat

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:41 AM

Even though not active in a long time, I think those are really nice feature helping much to differentiate from EL for instance and potentially making invasions much more interesting. .

Other ideas one may play with:
- add an option to have the boss actively call for help. This may draw other creature in. It may make boss serping much harder (if still an issue), at  least all mobs may be dead if somebody serps ..

- adding a flee-option. Mob tries to flee if in combat with an overpowered player.

- scared option: Mob tries to actively evade all or select players (based on armor and/or combat level). It also could be combined triggered how many other invasion mob is around.

#11 Learner

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 08:50 AM

View PostBlakKat, on 12 May 2018 - 08:41 AM, said:

Even though not active in a long time, I think those are really nice feature helping much to differentiate from EL for instance and potentially making invasions much more interesting. .

Other ideas one may play with:
- add an option to have the boss actively call for help. This may draw other creature in. It may make boss serping much harder (if still an issue), at  least all mobs may be dead if somebody serps ..

- adding a flee-option. Mob tries to flee if in combat with an overpowered player.

- scared option: Mob tries to actively evade all or select players (based on armor and/or combat level). It also could be combined triggered how many other invasion mob is around.
The HelpBoss option is similar to the call for help since mobs that aren't currently fighting check to see if they can help the boss before trying to do other things. I'd prefer not to teach the mobs to flee if currently busy. I've also clarified that the HelpBoss option gives preference to the current Primary Boss, and then if there are extra bosses those also get checked afterwards. One difference between HelpBoss and what you are thinking of call for help is the mobs will not move towards the Boss unless they can see a target they feel they should attack.

Please note that the Help* options will ignore the normal aggro distance and instead be controlled by what the mobs can see and click distance (which is higher then the aggro distance).

#12 ohmygod

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 10:33 PM

Quote

I'd prefer not to teach the mobs to flee if currently busy.
[01:07:38] Giant Midget fled the combat. Damn! Go get that coward!

#13 PandemiC

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:22 AM

View Postohmygod, on 12 May 2018 - 10:33 PM, said:

Quote

I'd prefer not to teach the mobs to flee if currently busy.
[01:07:38] Giant Midget fled the combat. Damn! Go get that coward!

That happens if a mob is being ranged from too far; has done so in EL for as many years as I can remember. This isn't something Learner just 'taught' mobs to do.

The 'Logic' that L is referring to is simply their Spawn Mechanics/Horde Behaviour, not the 'Combat' Logic in terms of who it turns to if someone disses or if someone ranges from too far.

View PostLearner, on 08 May 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

<snip>
The AI options using Damage Tracker include:
  • HelpBoss - the mobs will first look to see if then can attack players that have been hurting the effective Boss when they are trying to decide on what to do next. This is limited to players the mobs can actually see.
<snip>

L, Could you clarify if this is within 'attacking' range (e.g. 5x5~ space around the Boss) or is this limited to how good the mobs perception is? (Do invaded mobs/buffed mobs get increased perception?). I could see more of a use for Cape of Passive Camo if the latter is true, plus the day/night cycle would be of more use to mobs vs players.

#14 Learner

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 06:52 AM

View PostPandemiC, on 13 May 2018 - 05:22 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 08 May 2018 - 07:39 AM, said:

<snip>
The AI options using Damage Tracker include:
  • HelpBoss - the mobs will first look to see if then can attack players that have been hurting the effective Boss when they are trying to decide on what to do next. This is limited to players the mobs can actually see.
<snip>

L, Could you clarify if this is within 'attacking' range (e.g. 5x5~ space around the Boss) or is this limited to how good the mobs perception is? (Do invaded mobs/buffed mobs get increased perception?). I could see more of a use for Cape of Passive Camo if the latter is true, plus the day/night cycle would be of more use to mobs vs players.
Players voted out Perception affecting the distance you can see, so players and mobs can now see the same distance and OL doesn't even do any of the lighting/perception processing for being able to see a mob.. The aggro range for mobs is much less then they can see, so they normally ignore you unless they are close to you when making the decision.Normal spawns have one aggro range, invas a higher one, and Bosses even higher but still less then they can 'see' you at. All the Help* options though would use the same distance players can see mobs at which is much larger then their normal aggro range.




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