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#1 CoduX

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 06:47 AM

Creating a topic to discuss and open for suggestions on a new buy/sell price for a Vial.

Currently; can be bought & mixed

Current Buy Price: 3 Quartz & 3 gold coins

Current Sell Price: Can not sell

Current Mix: 1 Fire Essence & 2 Quartz

It is high time that this changes, especially the buy price. Please post any suggestions on what you think the new buy/sell price for a vial should be or if you wish for it to remain the same, explain why.

Regards,

CoduX

#2 butler

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 07:29 AM

I'm not going to say anything either way really, just going to state that I've always sold them at between 8-8.5gc a vial for all the ones I craft, which is roughly around cost or small loss if you were to buy everything in whilst mixing them.

I haven't sold many at 8.5gc because, in general, a lot of people don't want to pay for them at that price (and it would also have an impact on potion costs). 8gc-8.5gc is competitive with the NPC, with the added convenience I can just shove all these vials into your sto directly (so any small premium covers the cost to their time).

Quartz - 2gc
Fire Essence - 3gc
Enriched Fire Essence - 9,000gc
Vial Mold - 9,000gc
Potion of Feasting - 12gc
Red Toadstools - 2gc
Quartz*2 + Fire Essence = Ing Price
Vial Mold / 3067 = Tool cost*
Potion of feasting / 9 + Toadstool / 2 = Food cost
[CODE/]
[CODE]
(2*2)+3 = 7
9000/3077 = 2.92
(12/9)+(2/2)=2.33
Vial from NPC = (3*2)+3 = 9
Vial as cost to mix = 12.25gc
Cost sold by players = 8-10gc, mostly sub 9
*the number divided by is the the number of vials to a broken mold, on average, taken over the 120k vials I have currently on my counter versus the 39 broken molds

Atm you would genuinely be better selling off all the constituent parts of vials and the vial making process than making vials. Yet i still make them ...

#3 ohmygod

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 08:19 AM

I buy all you vials. PM me in game

#4 Warlock

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 01:29 PM

View PostCoduX, on 24 May 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:


Current Buy Price: 5 Quartz & 3 gold coins


3 Quartz & 3 gold coins*

#5 Learner

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 01:36 PM

View PostWarlock, on 24 May 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

View PostCoduX, on 24 May 2018 - 06:47 AM, said:

Current Buy Price: 5 Quartz & 3 gold coins


3 Quartz & 3 gold coins*
Yes, this is one of those differences between EL & OL a lot of people overlook. Harvey does charge less quartz here then he does in EL!

#6 butler

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 02:21 PM

Adjusted my post accordingly (I thought it was 3 quartz and 3 gc, but I've never talked to the npc). Still, the actual cost, factoring in the tools and food for vials is... well, it seems like it's actively encouraging not trading with other players, by making the cost of vials made by players (and keep in mind, all the stuff i'm basing it off is for one of the highest level crafters in game), where I'm kind of charging to cover the ings and no other expenses, or in otherword's, only charging 2/3rds of the cost of the actual craftable, because otherwise I'm still not really that competitive.

I don't know, maybe I'm the one that's been out for a few years, and should adjust my prices upwards towards 9/10gc a vial. But I'm guessing with pot ings such as BR, that others must be making/selling/valuing their vials around the same mark.

#7 CoduX

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 07:29 PM

Re-adjusted the current buy price.

In other words though, the buy price is still stupid with how the community & economy requires 100's of thousands of vials.

#8 butler

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 09:09 PM

Issue is that the mixing needs to be less than the buy price. The buy price kind of leads, with other ings to a reasonably good pot price. The reason, I think, that the price feels worse, is because I know a lot of crafters do not mix vials except for 2 reasons:
  • To level crafting
  • To make their own potions
I know I've heard Bat17, in the past, say he doesn't make vials so much anymore, because molds are an arse, and it's not really worth it (to paraphrase loosely from memory). I'm about the only person who bases a large portion of my ingame income on vials, and that's mostly because I'm an idiot, and my build is one of the least cost efficient and exp efficient ones ingame.

One issue also, in terms of a sell price to NPc (which I'd say would need to be around 5/6gc at most), is if it's too high, the ones from drinking pots will get thrown out of game from that, rather than recycled by the fighters for new pots. I know some fighters have quite large stacks built up.

If the balance of the game let vials be made at roughly 1gc less or cost of NPC, then I think there would be less issues with sourcing them, because right now, it's an absolutely bollocking to get enough molds to make any decent amount.

again, 120k vials took me 39 molds in the mid 70s of crafting upwards... that's 351kgc worth of molds for, what if i sold them all at the 8gc mark, would have been 960kgc worth of vials...

#9 ohmygod

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 12:02 AM

What is the point of this thread?

Making  uber crafting xp on the cheap (with no gc sink mechanism in play) or the NPC supply cost of vials to mix potions that are in demand by the fighters?

If anything i would like to see harvy accept my quartz without having to drop a stack each time before i can convert them to vials. As for cheap crafting xp there is always the cotton fields.

Edited cause it didnt read right.

ADDED:

If you want to make xp craft things that you can mae a profit on and are not already sold by an NPC like diss rings please stick to Bat17 established prices eg 110gc per unit (guild42)rather than 125+gc

#10 butler

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:22 AM

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 12:02 AM, said:

What is the point of this thread?
Vials are kind of strange with their NPC buy price/sell price versus other items in game, and in the weird position where the NPC price is undercutting the actual cost of making them

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 12:02 AM, said:

Making  uber crafting xp on the cheap (with no gc sink mechanism in play) or the NPC supply cost of vials to mix potions that are in demand by the fighters?
Nope, the uber crafting xp on the cheap was that paper exploit bat17 got a lot out of, compared to other crafters. The issue, in my eyes, is more that on a base level, people really have no reason to actually mix vials. As I said before, vials are kind of expected to sell at roughly 2/3rd - 3/4 of their actual cost to produce, which is at odds with pretty much every other mixable

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 12:02 AM, said:

If anything i would like to see harvy accept my quartz without having to drop a stack each time before i can convert them to vials. As for cheap crafting xp there is always the cotton fields.
Yes, everyone mixes FEs to level alch, and minor pots to level potioning... also, thread is 5 cotton (1gc per cotton taken prices codux sold at), so is 5gc for a 2gc product from NPCs...

I think... I think you might want to know what you're talking about before speaking.

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 12:02 AM, said:

If you want to make xp craft things that you can mae a profit on and are not already sold by an NPC like diss rings please stick to Bat17 established prices eg 110gc per unit (guild42)rather than 125+gc
I don't charge 125+, I charge 120-125, depending on the amount of stock i have, and that's entirely within the price range that I got from 42 when, guess what, I'm not a guildie. Also keep in mind, a lot of my prices are initially based on Bat17's prices, and from maki's (who left 42 not an awful long time ago), so I'm kind of in line with your guildies prices to none guildies. I also remember when i was in ~R~ with bat, i think the price was along 115gc for a dis ring in guild...

I mean, I sell a number of tele rings cheaper than bat has put them on Burebista for non guildies. I don't understand your complaining that I do similar markups to bat for none guildies/mates. I can survive fine by refusing to cut prices for you, because there are plenty who are happy to buy, even in you guild. From what I can tell, lots of guilds prices basically ignore, or cut out a large portion of the food cost, whereas non guildies you include most of that, because you aren't absorbing that cost to benefit a guildie...

Also, maths is good.

Fire Essence - 3gc
Silver - 2gc
Coal - 2gc
Sapphire - 3.8gc
Gem Sanding Paper - 10gc
Blue Lupine - 0.5gc
Blue Star Flower - 0.5gc
Blue Quartz - 2gc
Water Essence - 6.8gc
Silver Bars - 34gc
Polished Sapphire - 27.4gc
Silver rings - 77gc
Dis rings (w/o food costs) - 110.4gc
Food for FE's - 1 food per 13 needed
Food for WE's - 1 food per 2 needed
Food for Rings - 1 food per 1 needed
16/20 = 0.8 of a fruit (0.5gc) = 0.4gc per food
0.4 gc for small mixes

Food for Bars - 13 food per 2 needed
(45+10)/13 = 4.23 of a Pof+Toad (14gc) = 3.31gc
3.31*2 = 6.62gc for bars

Food for Sapphs - 12 food per 1 needed
(45+10)/12 = 4.58 of a Pof+Toad (14gc) = 3.06gc
3.06gc fo sapphs

Food for D. Ring- 36 food per 1 needed
(45+10)/36 = 1.53 of a Pof+Toad (14gc) = 9.15gc
9.15gc for final mix
Total Food - 90 food per ring
Total Food cost - 15.92 gc cos in food
Ring Ings only + Food Costs
110.4gc + 15.92gc = 126.22

I left out tool costs for dis rings because tool costs are tiny on dis rings, compared to vials, where if you make them in any quantity, over a third of the sale value is lost in tool costs. If the tool costs were lowered somewhat, so that the cost of making was roughly around 9, and the NPC was kept at the 9 value it is right now, or had 1 more gc required to be 10, that would be a much better position for vial mixers.

#11 Learner

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:27 AM

In your maths, don't forget that the 'value' of ings or food that people aren't buying is also lower then their normal price if you've been harvesting it yourself.

#12 butler

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:32 AM

View PostLearner, on 25 May 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

In your maths, don't forget that the 'value' of ings or food that people aren't buying is also lower then their normal price if you've been harvesting it yourself.
Yeah, but part of it is that if you sold the constituent parts, you'd make more gold than most of the final products. Afaik, the only real products I've really got away with mark up have been serpent swords, plate, and seridium medallions, since there is a lot of time taken in those, and larger fail chances with expensive ingredients.

Really i should include a markup to cover fail chances, and likely time, as things like dis rings are very very labour intensive to mix from scratch. Vials aren't so much, but their value, then again, is at most like 10/11 times less than that of rings, purely in terms of food.

#13 Learner

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 10:37 AM

View Postbutler, on 25 May 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 25 May 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

In your maths, don't forget that the 'value' of ings or food that people aren't buying is also lower then their normal price if you've been harvesting it yourself.
Yeah, but part of it is that if you sold the constituent parts, you'd make more gold than most of the final products. Afaik, the only real products I've really got away with mark up have been serpent swords, plate, and seridium medallions, since there is a lot of time taken in those, and larger fail chances with expensive ingredients.

Really i should include a markup to cover fail chances, and likely time, as things like dis rings are very very labour intensive to mix from scratch. Vials aren't so much, but their value, then again, is at most like 10/11 times less than that of rings, purely in terms of food.
My point is that for ings that aren't selling well, you may have to discount the cost of using them since they aren't selling well,

#14 PandemiC

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 11:47 AM

If Harvy requires 3gc/3 quartz then the crafting alternative needs to be close to this while also including the gc sink. I honestly think the main problem that everyone b*tches about (especially myself) is the vial mold break rate.

I have a two part suggestion:
1. Vial molds should be 'finite' in their use; I was thinking 10k vials per mold. You could make 9999 vials and sell it, and buy another but it would still break on # 10,000. (just a ball park figure/example). Maybe you could get creative and give it 5000 vials guaranteed, then a chance to break afterwards.

2. Vial molds should now be purchasable from an NPC (like all other molds) for 20,000 gc. (again ballpark/example)


This now makes a clear 2gc cost per vial in terms of molds, plus 4gc in quarts, plus 3 gc in FE = 9gc before food requirements. This now equals Harvy's option without taking into consideration food requirements, but you also get EXP back from mixing the vials so food is kinda negligible.

Selling molds through an NPC also gives a nice gc sink.

The 'unintended' side-effects this may cause:
- Slight increase in price of EFE
- Less people use Harvy's option, but consider the amt of gc sunk through vial molds @ NPC.
- More people mixing vial molds (EFE) to undercut NPC, instead of using for armors/weps.

#15 butler

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 11:58 AM

View PostPandemiC, on 25 May 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

<snip>
The 'unintended' side-effects this may cause:
- Slight increase in price of EFE
- Less people use Harvy's option, but consider the amt of gc sunk through vial molds @ NPC.
- More people mixing vial molds (EFE) to undercut NPC, instead of using for armors/weps.
Just going to state for this bit, one of the only ways i could get people to sell me vial molds was for trading an EFE for them. Most people wouldn't take the equivalent gc, or the equivalent with a small premium. That's just an observation i have over acquiring about 10-15 from other people opposed to mixing or getting someone to mix them.

#16 ohmygod

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 08:12 PM

Quote

Yes, everyone mixes FEs to level alch, and minor pots to level potioning... also, thread is 5 cotton (1gc per cotton taken prices codux sold at), so is 5gc for a 2gc product from NPCs...
The option is there to harvest your own and the 5gc cost goes to free, this is applicable to most items however it just saves time if you buy? Sounds like P2WIN if you keep buying stuff....Dripping with sarcasm btw the p2win comment. :P

Quote

I don't charge 125+, I charge 120-125, depending on the amount of stock i have, and that's entirely within the price range that I got from 42 when, guess what, I'm not a guildie.
My bad, I just checked the non-guild price on our forums as i dont see them on the 42 guild bot. and yes within the range you are selling for.

I perhaps have developed a sense of extreme over pricing from you after being told about your 50k large packs and do doubt what you say a lot...... .

Moving on, how is it that raw material prices are still closely based on EL prices? I ask as i was told the formula for pricing was typically based on the emu cost of the raw item. This may have been a pain for starter players trying to make gc through market  with low emu in EL but that is not the case in OL with LPs and 1 month soft resets. Happy to hear what your reasoning behind this may be.

Quote

Selling molds through an NPC also gives a nice gc sink.
Yes it would suck a lot of gc out of the game i reckon,

The break rate discussion has been raised before i think.

As stated previously I have not used the mixing option and buy mine from NPC, and if costs of the mixed item was less than my costs then why would i chose this path if the only reason i was doing it was to sell my vials on to the pot makers? ( i am not selling  on btw and mixing pots myself but if someone did then why bother use this path to make gc? (it does not make me xp))

#17 PandemiC

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 08:47 AM

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

Moving on, how is it that raw material prices are still closely based on EL prices? I ask as i was told the formula for pricing was typically based on the emu cost of the raw item. This may have been a pain for starter players trying to make gc through market  with low emu in EL but that is not the case in OL with LPs and 1 month soft resets. Happy to hear what your reasoning behind this may be.

I don't know how you draw the conclusion that any new player would be able to afford a large pack immediately. Low EMU is still an issue for new people who do not wish to spend $ on a game.

With regards to the 'pricing formula', there are plenty of factors:
- NPC 'Sell' Prices: http://www.el-wiki.net/Gerald ; http://www.el-wiki.n...ki.n.../Lavinia   (Iron ore 2gc, Silver 1gc, Gold 2.3gc, Titanium 2.5gc, and 0.2 - 0.5 per flower)
- EMU of the item
- Time it takes to harvest (e.g. iron ore weighs same as diamonds, but diamonds take longer)

Plus, there is practically no market for harvestables. I need in the region of 700k iron ore - do you know anyone who fancies harvesting that for me for less than 4 ea?

In such a small game it would make more sense to have raw harvestables purchasable from NPC for their avg market price. EL had something similar with iron/steel bars purchasable for 50/70 ea (Yet Gerald NPC sells ore for 30gc/ea.... weird) but this creates less market having a finished product like that available, compared to the raw ings.

This might also be a good time to branch off another discussion about harvesting intervals, 120harvests/exp cap, and EMU of items.

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

As stated previously I have not used the mixing option and buy mine from NPC, and if costs of the mixed item was less than my costs then why would i chose this path if the only reason i was doing it was to sell my vials on to the pot makers? ( i am not selling  on btw and mixing pots myself but if someone did then why bother use this path to make gc? (it does not make me xp))

You would still use this option because you (or someone who uses this methd to make gc - I don't think many DO actually do this however) do not have the nexus, craft level, time, tools, etc. Some people just prefer to harvest 30k quartz, and trade for 10k vials (worth 80-90kgc). It's also actually quicker than harvesting 20k quartz, 10k sulfur, 10k snaps, 10k red rose, mixing 10k fe, finding food, finding a vial mold, hoping it doesnt break and then mixing your 10k vials.

I have mixed vials to level craft & potion; not specifically for profit. I used most of the vials I make for PoF/BR/SR for personal use. If Vial molds weren't so ridiculous, I would probably think about making a few thousand if I had spare ings in sto and just sell em. If you do the maths, its like 700k vials from L70-L90, hence not mixing many vials anymore.

I think bringing the mixing method in-line with Harvy in terms of 'cost', or atleast close to it will actually relieve half your problem by allowing crafters to flood vials into the market, dropping the cost even further.

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

The break rate discussion has been raised before i think.

I know. I've probably created a thread about it years ago if you search, hence dragging the dusty topic back up again.

Edit: https://www.other-li.../59-vial-mold   (18 Sept 2012... Some 6 days after the server started)

#18 butler

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 10:11 AM

View Postohmygod, on 25 May 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

<snip>
My bad, I just checked the non-guild price on our forums as i dont see them on the 42 guild bot. and yes within the range you are selling for.

I perhaps have developed a sense of extreme over pricing from you after being told about your 50k large packs and do doubt what you say a lot...... .
<snip>
If I'm saying something like that, it's in a similar vein to Learner... I don't really want to sell that atm, but hey, if you're willing to pay a premium for something i don't really want to sell, I'll part with it. I also find it amusing to do that after no replies as well. You should have guessed my prices were fine when i offered you a fair price later on :P

For ease, I'll just respond to pandas response for the rest.

View PostPandemiC, on 26 May 2018 - 08:47 AM, said:

<Snip>
I have mixed vials to level craft & potion; not specifically for profit. I used most of the vials I make for PoF/BR/SR for personal use. If Vial molds weren't so ridiculous, I would probably think about making a few thousand if I had spare ings in sto and just sell em. If you do the maths, its like 700k vials from L70-L90, hence not mixing many vials anymore.

I think bringing the mixing method in-line with Harvy in terms of 'cost', or atleast close to it will actually relieve half your problem by allowing crafters to flood vials into the market, dropping the cost even further.
<snip>
I am largely one of the only people who doesn't potion as well as craft. There are quite a large number of people who do want vials, and there are a lot of people who do prefer to buy/trade from me because it means they don't have to be doing the Harvy haul. It's both convenience and time efficient for them, with less effort, but a similar capital cost. For example, there are 2 people who've ordered 10k lots of vials from me right now, and when i have had large quantities such as 20k+, they go very quickly, due to the demand from potioners versus the supply.

I do this mostly because cra has always been my strongest skill, and i started mixing vials for gc before it was immediately obvious how much of a loss maker they are. The only reason it increases my gc capital is because i harv everything to mix them, I make the molds, I spend a lot of time doing them, because they are, still, less of a ball ache for the gc, even if they are such a greedy thing tool wise, than doing dis rings most of the time, since it's only 4 base ings i need to harvest, versus the amount that goes into a dis ring, and acquiring all the food. It's basically the best I can do with how i levelled my skills and the time I have to play, most of the time. The demand is always there as well, due to the fact everybody and their grandmother does potioning, as it's the quickest and easiest mixing skill to level.




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