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Increase Level Cap & Modify Curve


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#1 butler

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 05:49 PM

Repost/ Rip of Pandemics original post (minus the google doc)

Quote

Hi all,

There seems to be a lot of discussion around raising the Level Cap recently.

The general consensus seems to be raising the level cap to circa 120-125.


The current formula/code for working out what the level cap/exp curve is as follows:
// = comments

INT
i // i = level

for i=1, exp=100; // level 1 starting exp
exp_lev[0]=0; // the starting level

VAR
exp++; // exp to next level

CONST
MAX_EXP_LEVEL = 4280000000 // Max EXP server can handle

for (i=1; i<MAX_EXP_LEVEL; i++)
{
if (i<50) exp++ = exp+exp*(40.0-i(1.5))/100.0;
else if (i<90) exp++ = exp+exp*10.00/100.0
else exp+exp*25.0/100.0;
if (exp >4280000000 || exp < exp_lev[i-1]) exp 4280000000;
exp_lev [i]=exp;
}

For those of you that don't have coding skills, but can better understand a spreadsheet, you can see that here:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing


I've added a new columns to the right of the existing EXP Chart showing what the comparison's between levels would be for my suggested changes. Those changes are as follows:

// = comments

INT i // i = level

for i=1, exp=100; // level 1 starting exp
exp_lev[0]=0; // the starting level

VAR: exp++; // exp to next level

CONST MAX_EXP_LEVEL = 4280000000 // Max EXP server can handle

for (i=1; i<MAX_EXP_LEVEL; i++)
{
if (i<60) exp++ = exp+exp*(40.0-i(1.5))/100.0; //60 instead of 50
else if (i<90) exp++ = exp+exp*5.00/100.0; // *5 instead of *10
else if (i<110) exp++ = exp+exp*10.0/100.0; // adding back *10 for 'soft cap' start
else exp+exp*25.0/100.0; //'hard cap' exp
if (exp >4280000000 || exp < exp_lev[i-1]) exp 4280000000;
exp_lev [i]=exp;
}

This basically just shifts the entire server between +5 and +10 levels and creates a larger 'mid-game' from 75 to 110 before things get difficult. This leaves things quite modular if we were to revisit the topic of raising the cap further, in the future, once more mobs, items, etc have been added.

For those that don't understand numbers at all, with credit to Maki here is a graph showing current EXP curve vs Suggested.
Posted Image

Pastebin link for raw numbers:
https://pastebin.com/ZQ25uTmz


TL;DR:
Suggested Level / EXP Curve:

L62 New = L55 Old
L72 New = L60 Old
L82 New = L65 Old
L88 New = L70 Old
L93 New = L75 Old
L100 New = L80 Old
L104 New = L85 Old
L109 New = L90 Old
L114 New = L95 Old
L119 New = L100 Old
L125 New = L105/L106 Old.


By all means we are open to suggestions here!

Have a play around with the numbers and let us know what you think.


#2 CoduX

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 06:36 PM

Good luck

#3 Learner

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 06:38 PM

I'll repeat my original comment that at the lower levels the original curves helps new players too much. It's already 'relatively easy' to reach 60 or 70. I think if you want to adjust the curve you need to look at points above that, not below that.

#4 Kaddy

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:54 AM

 Learner, on 05 July 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

I'll repeat my original comment that at the lower levels the original curves helps new players too much. It's already 'relatively easy' to reach 60 or 70. I think if you want to adjust the curve you need to look at points above that, not below that.

I have to agree on that one.

After L95, it’s still too damn hard and seems like it goes like the same curve since 5 levels are the same in old and new.

#5 EatsAllLife

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 04:18 AM

Keep the curve up until ~85, then make it a bit 'easier' to level up to the cap of 125 or w/e it is wanting to be raised to. Rather than 50m exp a level at 90's, make it like 25m or something idk.

#6 butler

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 07:02 AM

I reposted because someone was talking about it yesterday, and i thought that those who are still interested in it could hash it out. I am not a numbers guy.

#7 PandemiC

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 03:49 PM

 CoduX, on 05 July 2018 - 06:36 PM, said:

Good luck

This.

and; honestly, good luck with the numbers. What you have c+p'd there is actually nothing close to what I had in the end.

 Kaddy, on 06 July 2018 - 03:54 AM, said:

I have to agree on that one.

After L95, it’s still too damn hard and seems like it goes like the same curve since 5 levels are the same in old and new.

Sorry.... what?

From the pastebin link because the rest of the post is a botched c/p/edit.
L95  24,640,726
L96  27,104,798

27,104,798 - 24,640,726 = 2,464,072

Log onto OL and do #calc L96-L95 and then tell me what's the same / too hard.


This is one of the reasons why I mangled my version of this thread and why I wont actually help with the numbers anymore; its a complete waste of time for anyone to attempt it imho.

and Learner, if you know whats good for the game mate - wanna give a suggestion to the formula? If you have the time to sit there and write out nonsense in @6, and repeat yourself in threads, you have time to sit there and look at a few numbers.

#8 SimAnt

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Posted 06 July 2018 - 05:44 PM

erm. https://docs.google....OIo4K9b/pubhtml

#9 butler

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Posted 07 July 2018 - 06:48 AM

View PostPandemiC, on 06 July 2018 - 03:49 PM, said:

<snip>
and; honestly, good luck with the numbers. What you have c+p'd there is actually nothing close to what I had in the end.
<snip>

It was sent to me, I don't know at what time that was captured, but the whole kerfuffle happened whilst I was offline, so I had no chance to grab your numbers before you destroyed them.

#10 BlakKat

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:13 PM

Maybe good to see the mess graphically: https://ibb.co/bYkHCT

Data taken from SimAnt's post.

Note that the y-axis is the required experience to get to the next level after taking the log-base 10. So "6" means 1M exp needed and "8" means 100M exp needed.

It would be really easy to come up with something more smooth, like <exp-needed for next lvl>= 10^((x+23)/15.5) where the two constants approximate the proposed curve at lvl 0 and lvl 131.

#11 Learner

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 03:04 PM

View PostBlakKat, on 10 July 2018 - 02:13 PM, said:

Maybe good to see the mess graphically: https://ibb.co/bYkHCT

Data taken from SimAnt's post.

Note that the y-axis is the required experience to get to the next level after taking the log-base 10. So "6" means 1M exp needed and "8" means 100M exp needed.

It would be really easy to come up with something more smooth, like <exp-needed for next lvl>= 10^((x+23)/15.5) where the two constants approximate the proposed curve at lvl 0 and lvl 131.
Should also have a graph for total exp, not just exp to the next level since exp is cumulative to get a good comparison. Your graphs to me still shows that the level 50 - 70 range at a minimum is still easier to level when the real issues kick in at the high end. Now, if the formulates were change to have a smoother line from the curve near 40, to the kink near 100 on the new formula, then we'd have to see total exp as well to compare.

Keep in mind, you do need to watch total exp, and not just the difference between levels.

#12 butler

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 09:39 AM

50 to 70 is a bastard in multiple skills (range, manu, magic). So, basing it entirely on a/d experience ( i think L is thinking a lot more in that). The slight change in that mid game with the sim/panda numbers is actually quite nice.

#13 Learner

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 11:57 AM

View Postbutler, on 11 July 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

50 to 70 is a bastard in multiple skills (range, manu, magic). So, basing it entirely on a/d experience ( i think L is thinking a lot more in that). The slight change in that mid game with the sim/panda numbers is actually quite nice.
Manu will always be a pain, magic & ranging are scheduled to be able to get kill bonuses with the proposed change that can help if players are interested .... ref https://www.other-li...-to-kill-bonus/

At least with Manu/mixing skills you do get more exp per item then you do in EL.

One does have to think long term, not just 'how is it now'.

#14 BlakKat

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 10:57 PM

Quote

Should also have a graph for total exp, not just exp to the next level since exp is cumulative to get a good comparison. Your graphs to me still shows that the level 50 - 70 range at a minimum is still easier to level when the real issues kick in at the high end. Now, if the formulates were change to have a smoother line from the curve near 40, to the kink near 100 on the new formula, then we'd have to see total exp as well to compare.


Cumulative experience: https://ibb.co/eYDECT .

Psychologically, I find the exp required to achieve the next level more important. It can be very tiring if you grind and grind and nothing is happening ...

#15 BlakKat

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Posted 11 July 2018 - 11:11 PM

View Postbutler, on 11 July 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

50 to 70 is a bastard in multiple skills (range, manu, magic). So, basing it entirely on a/d experience ( i think L is thinking a lot more in that). The slight change in that mid game with the sim/panda numbers is actually quite nice.

Imho the correct thing to do is to fix the exp you get in the skill rather than trying to mess with the required exp for the levels. Apart from elegance a very practical reason is that it will be impossible to optimize the required exp for the levels for all skills at the same time, unless one introduces a separate scale for the various skills which I find personally highly unsatisfactory. The other reason why the skills-boni should be adjusted rather than messing with the scale is to value non A/D skills more, i.e. they would get more weight for the OA.

#16 Warlock

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 08:23 AM

And then we can just forget about the hundred other creature types we COULD use for OL and stick with Cyclops being max :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

#17 butler

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:23 PM

View PostBlakKat, on 11 July 2018 - 11:11 PM, said:

View Postbutler, on 11 July 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

50 to 70 is a bastard in multiple skills (range, manu, magic). So, basing it entirely on a/d experience ( i think L is thinking a lot more in that). The slight change in that mid game with the sim/panda numbers is actually quite nice.

Imho the correct thing to do is to fix the exp you get in the skill rather than trying to mess with the required exp for the levels. Apart from elegance a very practical reason is that it will be impossible to optimize the required exp for the levels for all skills at the same time, unless one introduces a separate scale for the various skills which I find personally highly unsatisfactory. The other reason why the skills-boni should be adjusted rather than messing with the scale is to value non A/D skills more, i.e. they would get more weight for the OA.

That would be good if we could just server wipe. Issue is, people already have the exp.
Tbh, these are things that should have been done before a proper launch.
At this point if you readjust the exp values, you need to also extend the cap.

#18 Learner

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 01:26 PM

View Postbutler, on 12 July 2018 - 01:23 PM, said:

View PostBlakKat, on 11 July 2018 - 11:11 PM, said:

View Postbutler, on 11 July 2018 - 09:39 AM, said:

50 to 70 is a bastard in multiple skills (range, manu, magic). So, basing it entirely on a/d experience ( i think L is thinking a lot more in that). The slight change in that mid game with the sim/panda numbers is actually quite nice.

Imho the correct thing to do is to fix the exp you get in the skill rather than trying to mess with the required exp for the levels. Apart from elegance a very practical reason is that it will be impossible to optimize the required exp for the levels for all skills at the same time, unless one introduces a separate scale for the various skills which I find personally highly unsatisfactory. The other reason why the skills-boni should be adjusted rather than messing with the scale is to value non A/D skills more, i.e. they would get more weight for the OA.

That would be good if we could just server wipe. Issue is, people already have the exp.
Tbh, these are things that should have been done before a proper launch.
At this point if you readjust the exp values, you need to also extend the cap.
That's how we got the exp curve & cap we have now. Just different people have different ideas and want to change things.

#19 butler

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 02:11 PM

well clearly it wasn't done well since pot is over easy, man and mag or over hard.

Quite a few things that are just massively off exp wise. spread of things to mix/kill on the curve for levels isn't very well spread out to make you kill new things frequently, to give variety, and just in general, it looks like it's was mostly just put all your hope in on exp algorithim that misses out a number of things.

I think everyone knows what skills are quicker to level.

#20 Learner

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Posted 12 July 2018 - 03:31 PM

View Postbutler, on 12 July 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

well clearly it wasn't done well since pot is over easy, man and mag or over hard.

Quite a few things that are just massively off exp wise. spread of things to mix/kill on the curve for levels isn't very well spread out to make you kill new things frequently, to give variety, and just in general, it looks like it's was mostly just put all your hope in on exp algorithim that misses out a number of things.

I think everyone knows what skills are quicker to level.
"Your hope"? I'm not in that category at all. I do realize that the other skills still need time ti look a and adjust them. There is so much to do and so little help available the priorities must be considered regularly




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