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New Weapons [and how we can make it so there is no single best weapon]


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#1 Rabbitman

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Posted 09 August 2019 - 03:36 PM

Hey Everyone,

There have been several threads discussing adding new equipment to OL, I believe the most recent discussion is here: https://www.other-li...l__epic swords.

Learner and I discussed new weapons in-game earlier this week. One of his concerns in implementing new weapons is he wants there to not be a single weapon that is best for all situations. He wanted a clear explanation how the different weapons we are proposing are different and situational examples which would explain when players would use the different designs. I am going to try and answer these fundamental questions alongside presenting stats for new weapons. I am going to start the post off with a few basic definitions and then explain what each of the stats on weapons do in combat and what kind of scenarios they are useful/not useful in. I'll describe an equipment scoring system I put together to quantify the overall strength of current in-game weapons, and use this to highlight why the serpent sword is the go-to weapon. I will then present the updated stats I have put together for new weapons, describe why each weapon is designed the way it is, and explain when a player may want to use that weapon or avoid that weapon.

0. Some definitions
Successful attack: This means the attacker's to-hit equation was higher than the defender's to-dodge equation for a specific round. Note, attackers can have successful attacks without getting experience. This is because attackers only get experience if they do damage to the defender. Any hits where the damage is reduced to zero by armor/toughness are still successful attack's for the purposes of this post.

Damage equation: The damage to a target is determined using the equation: A x <equipment damage> + B x <attack might> - C x <defender armor> - D x <defender toughness>, where A, B, C, and D are constants defined on the server (I believe A & C to be 1.0, B and D to be 0.5, but Learner would be the one to know).

To-hit equation: Whether the attacker or defender wins in a combat is determined using the equation:

To-hit = A x <attacker attack level> + B x <attacker dexterity> + C x <attacker equipment accuracy> - D x <defender defense level> - E x <defender reaction> - F x <defender equipment defense> +/- <random roll>, where A-F are constants defined on the server (generally A-F are close to 1.0).

1. Explanation of stats

Weapons in OL generally have 6 stats: min/max damage, critical-to-damage, critical-to-hit, defense, and accuracy:

1a. Min/max damage: This is the raw damage that a weapon adds to a successful attack roll. Once a hit is determined to be successful, the damage to a target is determined using the damage equation. In general, raw damage will always be helpful in combat; however, opponents with very high toughness will never take much damage from physical attacks.

1b. Critical-to-damage: This is the percentage chance that a successful attack roll will bypass the defender's armor. Bypassing the defender's armor means coefficient C in the damage equation is set to zero. I believe the critical-to-damage number is the direct percentage chance without any sort of multiplier. This means a critical-to-damage of 15 will make 15% of successful attacks bypass the opponent's armor. Note, this does not help the attacker have a successful attack, but it will usually deal at least some damage to the target. Critical-to-damage is primarily useful against opponents who have high armor, like phantom warriors and fluffy rabbits. Critical-to-damage has no effect if an opponent has zero armor, such as most deer, tigers, etc.

1c. Critical-to-hit: This is the percentage chance that the to-hit equation is ignored for a round and the attack is automatically judged to be successful. You can think of this as the chance that D-F in the to-hit equation are set to zero for the round. Similar to critical-to-damage, I believe the number is the direct percentage chance without any sort of multiplier. Critical-to-hit is primarily useful against opponents who have very high defense/reaction/equipment defense, such as yetis, dragons, and high level bosses. Critical-to-hit has a small benefit against opponents that you can hit normally, but it is typically insignificant.

1d. Defense: This adds to the defender's chance to dodge an attack in the to-hit equation. In general, defense is useful when the to-hit equation is close to zero as it will increase the chance of a successful dodge. Equipment defense is useless when the attacker's attack level/dexterity/accuracy is significantly higher than the defender's defense level/reaction/equipment defense. This is because it does not significantly increase the chance of dodging. For a character like Achilles or Warlock, equipment defense is primarily useful for creatures up to mcw/fcw in strength. Anything higher, such as yeti, dragons, or some high level bosses, no amount of equipment defense will help dodge.

1e. Accuracy: This adds to the attacker's chance to hit the defender in the to-hit equation. Similar to equipment defense, accuracy is useful when the to-hit equation is close to zero as it will increase the chance of a successful attack. However, accuracy is useless when the defender's defense level/reaction/equipment defense is significantly higher than the attacker's attack level/dexterity/accuracy for similar reasons. For a character like Achilles or Warlock, accuracy is primarily useful for creatures up to midgets/mcw/yeti in strength. Anything higher, such as dragons and some high level bosses, no amount of accuracy will help hit.

2. Equipment scoring

As I pointed out in the first section, each of the stats on a weapon have different purposes, so it is difficult to come up with a single score for a weapon's strength. I defined the following equation to compare the weapons in OL:

1.0 x <Average Damage> + 1.5 x <Equipment Defense> + 1.5 x <Accuracy> + 0.5 x <Critical-to-damage> + 0.5 x <Critical-to-hit>

The specific values of the coefficients are debatable. In my opinion, 1 equipment defense/accuracy is worth 3x as much as a single percentage point of either critical-to-hit or critical-to-damage, and raw damage is somewhere between the others. Also in my opinion, a negative value lowers the score less than a positive value adds. For example, a steel shield has -2 critical-to-hit value. However, this only matters against opponents that you have a very low chance to hit with normal attacks. In my scoring scheme, the magnitude of any negative numbers are reduced by 80% in the equation.

Using this equation, I scored all the current weapons in OL. Note, for the single-handed weapons I added the score from a steel shield as well:

Iron Sword - 18.0
Iron Broad Sword - 17.0
Steel Long Sword - 23.5
Two Edged Steel Sword - 26.5
Titanium Short Sword - 28.5
Titanium Long Sword - 36.5
Titanium Serpent Sword - 47.5
Iron Axe - 22.8
Steel Axe - 34.3
Wooden Battle Hammer - 13.3
Iron Battle Hammer - 19.3
Frying Pan - 30.0
Wooden Staff - 16.8
Quarterstaff - 27.0

These numbers show there are around 3 tiers of weapons. Tier 1 is the Titanium Serpent Sword which is 30-40% stronger than any of the tier 2 weapons. Tier 2 is the titanium long, steel axe, and frying pan which are 10-30% stronger than the tier 3 weapons. Tier 3 weapons are the trash tier weapons which are only used occasionally because they are dirt cheap. If you look closer at the serpent sword, it is obvious why it is so much higher than all the others...it has higher numbers in every category than almost every weapon!

3. New weapons

The general method I used to design the new weapons was to assume all the new weapons should have a similar score to the Serpent Sword + Steel Shield, but re-arrange the damage and modifiers.

Weapon Min/Max Damage Defense Accuracy Critical-to-hit Critical-to-damage Score Description
Orc Slayer 34/44 0 0 0 0 47.5 High damage weapon without any other negatives/bonuses.
Emerald Claymore 22/28 5 5 -5 -5 46.0 Balanced hit/dodge weapon with lower criticals.
Cutlass 22/28 0 10 0 -10 46.0 High hit weapon, sacrificing critical-to-damage.
Sunbreaker 20/24 -3 -3 0 40 46.0 High armor piercing weapon, sacrificing raw damage and hit/dodge.
Eagle Wing 22/24 10 0 0 0 46.0 High dodge weapon, sacrificing raw damage.
Rapier                     20/24 -3 -3 40 0 46.0 High critical-to-hit weapon, sacrificing raw damage and hit/dodge.
Jagged Saber         20/24 -3 -3 20 20 46.0 Balanced criticals weapon, sacrificing raw damage and hit/dodge.
Halberd                   40/60 -5 -5 -5 10 46.3 High damage weapon, sacrificing hit/dodge and shield bonus.
Staff of Protection   10/20 20 0 0 0 45.0 High dodge weapon, sacrificing raw damage.
Spear 30/40 0 8 0 0 47.0 High damage weapon, trading shield bonus for accuracy bonus.

4. Scenarios

Each of the new weapons will be useful in different scenarios for different players. Note, not every weapon will be useful to every player as it will depend on play style! To highlight this, I'll describe a few example scenarios and list what weapon I believe would be best for the Achilles character for that scenario.

4a. Multi-combat invasion with phantom warriors, cyclops, fluffys, and dcws: I would probably bring an eagle wing, orc slayer, and sunbreaker with me to this invasion. If I am in multi-combat with more than 4 creatures, I would want to use the eagle wing to help me continue dodging, otherwise I would want to use the orc slayer for higher damage. Any time I was targetting a phantom warrior I would switch to the Sunbreaker to bypass the armor.

4b. Single-combat invasion with creatures up to cyclops: I would probably only bring a halberd and sunbreaker. Halberd for everything except creatures with high armor I would switch to sunbreaker. This is because I would easily hit/dodge all creatures in the invasion.

4c. Multi-combat invasion with mcws: I would bring a staff of protection and spear with me. When I was tanking the mcw I would use the staff of protection, when I was not I would use the spear.

4d. Any combat with high bosses, such as Puff and Fluffy Gargle: I would use the rapier or jagged saber. Which one would depend if I needed to bypass the armor on the boss more often.

5. Wrap-up

Long post, but I hope that explains a bit more about what each stat does, why the serpent sword is so powerful, and how we could add more weapons without making any one weapon so powerful that it becomes the new serpent sword.

#2 AlddrA

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 07:22 AM

Really don't know much about stats for weapons and armour,  more of a "just put on gear and hope for the best" lol

But thank you for your time to post these statsPosted Image

#3 Zian

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 07:32 AM

Should Character/Race effect their ability to weld a particular weapon? Eg. What would the outcome (Damage) be between a Gnome vs. a Orchan when welding the same weapon? Should character attributes be taken into the equation?

#4 AlddrA

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Posted 10 August 2019 - 07:38 AM

You do mean the races, right Zian, not the players?

#5 Zian

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 08:12 AM

View PostAlddrA, on 10 August 2019 - 07:38 AM, said:

You do mean the races, right Zian, not the players?

Players, including mobs - I expect that when a new weapon is brought into game could be used by a mob too.

#6 Learner

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 08:50 AM

View PostZian, on 11 August 2019 - 08:12 AM, said:

View PostAlddrA, on 10 August 2019 - 07:38 AM, said:

You do mean the races, right Zian, not the players?

Players, including mobs - I expect that when a new weapon is brought into game could be used by a mob too.
ANY item brought into the game should be considered as something a mob might use. Currently it's only wearable/wieldable items, but there are plans to expand that!

#7 Rabbitman

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Posted 11 August 2019 - 11:31 AM

View PostZian, on 10 August 2019 - 07:32 AM, said:

Should Character/Race effect their ability to weld a particular weapon? Eg. What would the outcome (Damage) be between a Gnome vs. a Orchan when welding the same weapon? Should character attributes be taken into the equation?

My preference on race benefits would be static bonuses rather than binary yes/no on allowable equipment. For example, perhaps gnomes innately have 1 magic nexus and +4 perception. Dwarves have 1 inorg nexus and +4 carry. Orchans have 1 human nexus and +4 might. Elves 1 artificial nexus and +2/2 reaction/dexterity.

#8 ohmygod

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 12:51 PM

Good luck with this.

#9 EatsAllLife

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 01:44 AM

View PostAlddrA, on 10 August 2019 - 07:38 AM, said:

You do mean the races, right Zian, not the players?

View PostZian, on 11 August 2019 - 08:12 AM, said:

View PostAlddrA, on 10 August 2019 - 07:38 AM, said:

You do mean the races, right Zian, not the players?

Players, including mobs - I expect that when a new weapon is brought into game could be used by a mob too.

Personally, I find the races should just be cosmetic. Other-wise the P2P races have advantages that the others do not, making it a p2w game (which is already a thing, as the p2p races don't get affected by fighting books- which would/could/should be changed by adding them since there are AI races now)

View PostRabbitman, on 11 August 2019 - 11:31 AM, said:

View PostZian, on 10 August 2019 - 07:32 AM, said:

Should Character/Race effect their ability to weld a particular weapon? Eg. What would the outcome (Damage) be between a Gnome vs. a Orchan when welding the same weapon? Should character attributes be taken into the equation?

My preference on race benefits would be static bonuses rather than binary yes/no on allowable equipment. For example, perhaps gnomes innately have 1 magic nexus and +4 perception. Dwarves have 1 inorg nexus and +4 carry. Orchans have 1 human nexus and +4 might. Elves 1 artificial nexus and +2/2 reaction/dexterity.

No, otherwise the game does become someone class based by race, that is one of the main attractive points on this game- classless meaning you dictate your build by your points earned, and not by anything else. In reality, if there is going to be anything class specific, it should be "exp gains" in a specific things, or maybe a dfferent start out of stats (which is possibly what you were saying, Achi, but then again, certain players cannot access that benefit at the start unless they buy their P2P char, and nobody does that as a newb who has any sensibility left in them)

Overall, amazing post and hopefully this gets us somewhere, I have little hope left in that field as all other posts were tossed aside, but with these formulas here- you may be the key to the locked abilities of this game.

#10 Ena

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 06:44 PM

Reading it on paper i feel like orc slayer kicks emerald claymore's ass,  I'd rather have the higher base damage
Like i would pick OS over spear any day, because you sacrifice the shield slot.
SoP should be higher defense as you're compensating the shield slot again, but lower damage so 5 min 10 max, with +25 to defense, since I can see the tank going this way while DPS hit. We should give the tanks some fighting chance since the higher level mobs will require teamwork anyways. Might as well encourage tanks to be tanks, and DMG to be DPS, which will compliment the new perks system (hopefully!)
That way we can also eventually have new mobs and new strategies and fun for the players.
Just my two cents.

#11 Rabbitman

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 07:07 PM

Thanks for the feedback! See comments below. I also added an image of the table so it is easier to read: https://i.imgur.com/HkL3DNd.jpg

View PostEna, on 14 August 2019 - 06:44 PM, said:

Reading it on paper i feel like orc slayer kicks emerald claymore's ass,  I'd rather have the higher base damage
I agree for stuff that you don't need the defense/accuracy on. Things that are borderline like fcw/mcw for me or cyclops for patriot would be easier with the emerald claymore than the orc slayer. Emerald claymore is basically a serp sword where the critical chance has been swapped out for higher damage.

View PostEna, on 14 August 2019 - 06:44 PM, said:

Like i would pick OS over spear any day, because you sacrifice the shield slot.

The spear has similar damage to the orc slayer, but +8 accuracy (+10 if you consider the -2 accuracy on steel shield while using orc slayer). I imagine it being useful for bosses where you need that extra accuracy to hit on top of multi combat def reduction. Maybe the accuracy needs to be higher to better balance the spear.

View PostEna, on 14 August 2019 - 06:44 PM, said:

SoP should be higher defense as you're compensating the shield slot again, but lower damage so 5 min 10 max, with +25 to defense, since I can see the tank going this way while DPS hit. We should give the tanks some fighting chance since the higher level mobs will require teamwork anyways. Might as well encourage tanks to be tanks, and DMG to be DPS, which will compliment the new perks system (hopefully!)
That way we can also eventually have new mobs and new strategies and fun for the players.
Just my two cents.

Agreed, I think +25 defense on sop and lower damage makes sense!

Posted Image

#12 Zian

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Posted 14 August 2019 - 08:48 PM

The table makes it a lot clearer to understand, so thanks.

I would hope that a player's 'proficiency' with each weapon counts in the final equation. Posted Image

#13 ebattleon

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 03:51 AM

Eagle Wings Ave damage is same as Max Damage?

Orc Slayer is hardest hitting weapon with no malus? I would think that for balance you make it hardest hitter you'd need to give up to something like say accuracy or defense.

#14 Kaddy

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 09:57 AM

Is this 2017 again? Because I made this topic in 2017, and L didn't give a shit.

Goodluck again, lol.

PS. Your link is broken. :P

#15 ohmygod

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 11:21 AM

Quote

Is this 2017 again? Because I made this topic in 2017, and L didn't give a shit.
See my first post in this new thread Posted Image



What does weighted PP mean?

Quote


The table makes it a lot clearer to understand, so thanks.

I would hope that a player's 'proficiency' with each weapon counts in the final equation. Posted Image

Isnt that Human? dont have enough nex in that  then cant wield the weapon, whether you can hit anything is based on dex+attack level?

#16 Rabbitman

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Posted 15 August 2019 - 04:26 PM

I have tuned the proposed weapons a bit based on feedback, see the updated table below. A few notable changes:

1. Noticed the 80% reduction I had mentioned for for negatives was actually 50% in my spreadsheet. Updated to 80%.
2. Adjusted damage pp to be 1.0 instead of 1.5. Damage, accuracy, and defense are now equally weighted. Criticals are still weighted at 0.5.
3. Increased the stat benefits on a few of the great swords based on feedback from players. (Emerald claymore should be a more viable alternative to orc slayer now, sop has higher defense, cutlass has more accuracy at +15 instead of +10, etc).
4. In general the damage on the high damage new weapons (orc slayer, halberd, spear) has been reduced to have less of an increase over current weapons.

I think the balance on the weapons is better now. What are your thoughts?

View Postohmygod, on 15 August 2019 - 11:21 AM, said:


What does weighted PP mean?


Weighted pp is the estimated strength of each weapon. It is calculated as:

<Damage Multiplier> x <Average Damage> + <Defense/Accuracy Multiplier> x <Defense + Accuracy> + <Criticals Multiplier> x <Crit H + Crit D>

where Damage multiplier = 1.0, Defense/Accuracy Multiplier = 1.0, Criticals Multiplier = 0.5

Note, any negative values are reduced by 80% in the equation. The idea being you gain less pp for negatives than it costs to increase a stat (For example -5 defense gives +4 pp for other stats).

Posted Image




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