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Recipe Proposals for New Weapons


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#41 ohmygod

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 01:20 AM

The mirror cape as a drop is ubar RARE, however it is not rare in game item as an NPC sells it for eye gouging price to those who can pay the price.

The serp swords rely on RARE mob drop ings in their production, and the ONLY WAY a serp sword enters the game other than joker prize is by being manued and as such we have a hording issue for serp stones in game because of this, and thus making it a RARE sword for some or at least the major bottle neck in its current production rates.

The great swords in game will NOT be rare in game as they WILL be SOLD by an NPC for similar eye gouging prices as the mirror cape(?) AND can also be manued.

However, I have a feeling that the next player hoardable item (or major bottle neck in production) will be the Binding stone if it is included in the ing required to manu these swords, as they like the serp stone only come into the game via drop or harvest event (ive not seen as a prize on joker),  if we make manuers rely on drop/harvest event items to produce these swords then they could be sitting around forever waiting to get the binding stones they need to ply their trade. Is this something we want the keen mixer players to be doing in the game with their time?

ADDED: Enriched ess has several pathways into the game 1) mixing event when producing/grinding the normal version. 2) use of enrichment stone + recipe. 3) as a rare mob drop Item. 4) As a reward from joker

If we are stuck on the idea of using bindings or serp stones in recipes then maybe we need more pathways for them to enter the game as well? eg grind + effort and not just pure luck alone.

#42 skullpants

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 05:18 AM

Fighters can choose to use cheaper weapons if they want.  As I said I myself use a steel axe, 800 to 900 gold coin each, hits hard, inexpensive, and very durable.Gold coin is easy to get in game, serp stones are not.



I agree 100% with Ohmygod , I believe using items like enriched essies is a good way to balance costs without making the weapons too hard to find.

#43 ohmygod

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 07:34 AM

Can we do a poll for the price of the swords from NPC?

I really just want to kill stuff with them before the end of the year.....The ings discussion for each sword may take a while.

#44 Learner

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 11:38 AM

View Postohmygod, on 11 December 2019 - 07:34 AM, said:

Can we do a poll for the price of the swords from NPC?

I really just want to kill stuff with them before the end of the year.....The ings discussion for each sword may take a while.
Ings & NPC prices affect each other

#45 patriot

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:06 PM

View Postohmygod, on 11 December 2019 - 01:20 AM, said:

The mirror cape as a drop is ubar RARE, however it is not rare in game item as an NPC sells it for eye gouging price to those who can pay the price.

The serp swords rely on RARE mob drop ings in their production, and the ONLY WAY a serp sword enters the game other than joker prize is by being manued and as such we have a hording issue for serp stones in game because of this, and thus making it a RARE sword for some or at least the major bottle neck in its current production rates.

The great swords in game will NOT be rare in game as they WILL be SOLD by an NPC for similar eye gouging prices as the mirror cape(?) AND can also be manued.



I do keep forgetting the NPC will sell them. I am agreed with you, we should get those onto NPC quickly because ings discussions might take years.

#46 Learner

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Posted 11 December 2019 - 12:33 PM

View Postpatriot, on 11 December 2019 - 12:06 PM, said:

View Postohmygod, on 11 December 2019 - 01:20 AM, said:

The mirror cape as a drop is ubar RARE, however it is not rare in game item as an NPC sells it for eye gouging price to those who can pay the price.

The serp swords rely on RARE mob drop ings in their production, and the ONLY WAY a serp sword enters the game other than joker prize is by being manued and as such we have a hording issue for serp stones in game because of this, and thus making it a RARE sword for some or at least the major bottle neck in its current production rates.

The great swords in game will NOT be rare in game as they WILL be SOLD by an NPC for similar eye gouging prices as the mirror cape(?) AND can also be manued.



I do keep forgetting the NPC will sell them. I am agreed with you, we should get those onto NPC quickly because ings discussions might take years.
The reason I say both go together is if you set the NPC price too low compared to the cost to make the item,nobody will make it, so having an idea of the Ings and their costs can then determine a minimum NPC price, and the you raise the NPC price even higher to give room for some pricing between the two.

#47 skullpants

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 04:40 PM

I would like to suggest that instead of trying to implement all the great swords at one time that we pick two and nail down the recipes, and put the books for those on an NPC while at the same time add those swords for purchase on another NPC at  a premium price. This way we can get some in the hands of players quickly while implementing the entire line slowly enough to study the effects on the balance of the game economy. After we have two in game we can start the process again with two more.

#48 Zian

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Posted 12 December 2019 - 10:54 PM

View Postskullpants, on 12 December 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

I would like to suggest that instead of trying to implement all the great swords at one time that we pick two and nail down the recipes, and put the books for those on an NPC while at the same time add those swords for purchase on another NPC at  a premium price. This way we can get some in the hands of players quickly while implementing the entire line slowly enough to study the effects on the balance of the game economy. After we have two in game we can start the process again with two more.

I like this suggestion...using Ti_Serp as base line...what would be the next level Sword???

Regards
Z

#49 skullpants

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 12:01 AM

Achillies made a post that rated the great swords from top to bottom with the serp somewhere in the upper middle. I cant remember where it was though.

#50 patriot

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 01:03 AM

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#51 ohmygod

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 05:28 AM

View PostZian, on 12 December 2019 - 10:54 PM, said:

View Postskullpants, on 12 December 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

I would like to suggest that instead of trying to implement all the great swords at one time that we pick two and nail down the recipes, and put the books for those on an NPC while at the same time add those swords for purchase on another NPC at  a premium price. This way we can get some in the hands of players quickly while implementing the entire line slowly enough to study the effects on the balance of the game economy. After we have two in game we can start the process again with two more.

I like this suggestion...using Ti_Serp as base line...what would be the next level Sword???

Regards
Z

There is not a next level from my reading of Achilies chart just weapons that are more situational. Tit serp is still the best all round weapon

#52 skullpants

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 06:01 AM

I was thinking that the weighted PP numbers were a way to rate the weapons strength, but you are correct tit serp is at the top.

#53 Zian

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 08:39 AM

View Postohmygod, on 13 December 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

View PostZian, on 12 December 2019 - 10:54 PM, said:

View Postskullpants, on 12 December 2019 - 04:40 PM, said:

I would like to suggest that instead of trying to implement all the great swords at one time that we pick two and nail down the recipes, and put the books for those on an NPC while at the same time add those swords for purchase on another NPC at  a premium price. This way we can get some in the hands of players quickly while implementing the entire line slowly enough to study the effects on the balance of the game economy. After we have two in game we can start the process again with two more.

I like this suggestion...using Ti_Serp as base line...what would be the next level Sword???

Regards
Z

There is not a next level from my reading of Achilies chart just weapons that are more situational. Tit serp is still the best all round weapon

Ok...let's work down from Ti_Serp. Which would be the next sword?

#54 patriot

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Posted 13 December 2019 - 12:26 PM

They're situational weapons...I don't know why I have to keep saying this over and over and over....

But the most desirable weapons are probably going to be Orc Slayer, Halberd, and SoP


But like I said...they're situational, so each weapon is going to be super great at one thing, and decent for general combat.

#55 Rabbitman

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Posted 19 February 2022 - 08:28 AM

There's been a lot of discussion on the forums over the last few years on the great sword ings/rarity etc. I figured I would weigh in on this topic to clarify some points and make my suggestion based on the thoughts I had in designing them.

View Postpatriot, on 03 December 2019 - 02:17 AM, said:

Since there has been a lot of discussion in #GM and PMs and channels about these weapons that Achilles re-worked, I want to propose getting them in-game to the point where they are usable.

There has been some opinions that these are to be rare weapons, "great" weapons, etc. That is not what this re-design was supposed to be. These are supposed to be AFFORDABLE, EASILY REPLACEABLE weapons, that are used situationally. Meaning that fighters may need 2-3 of them when they go face a horde, depending on what they are fighting at any given moment they can switch as needed.


This is mostly correct. I don't know if I would say that they need to be super easily replaceable (as in go buy from the npc for 1k like a small pack), but being able to grab them from an NPC at reasonable price or mix with reasonable ingredients is intended. Because they are very situational, players may want to have 4-5 of these weapons compared to having only 1 serpent stone. I'm not going to say these need to be 4-5x easier to get than a serpent sword, but they do NOT need to be harder to get than a serpent sword in my opinion.

Learner has mentioned this concern in this thread and others:

View PostLearner, on 06 December 2019 - 08:39 PM, said:

While I'll get blasted for this. considering all the Great Swords a better then Serpent, ALL of them should cost more and require a higher level Manu then Serpent Sword! It's logical or things will get badly out of balance.

Rare or hard to gather items are separate discussions from that statement!

The great swords weren't designed to be better than Serps. Remember I designed an "equipment pick point" system for them and established stats for each great sword and two-handed weapon to make them similar strength (see image below for reminder). The great swords and 2-handers are "more powerful" because they are more specialized (i.e., serpent sword is the jack of all trades which will make it the best "general" weapon but not optimal in any specific situation).

View Postpatriot, on 03 December 2019 - 02:17 AM, said:

Orc Slayer: High damage weapon, no negs or bonuses
1 Binding Stone
40 Fire Essence
10 Steel Bars
20 Titanium Bars
20 Leather
Manufacture Level: 35

I like this is a general starting point for the recipe design. However, I would propose we integrate some of the feedback from other people, such as Panda who said this in another thread

View PostPandemiC, on 14 December 2019 - 09:56 AM, said:


TL;DR: 1. Introduce Wolframite. 2. Reduce Steel long sword cost (# steel bars). 3. Remove serpent stone from Wolframite formula. 4. Introduce New formula cost of around 52-60kgc + rec level of 50 for majority of greatswords except 2handers. NPC Price around 80kgc

I agree with Panda's assessments here but I would lower the formula cost to 2 wolfram bars which would lower formula cost to34-42kgc and make the NPC price 60kgc. My preference would be to replace the binding stone with 2 seridium bars to address omg's concerns about rare ingredients, but I'm ok with a single rare ingredient. I would say binders would need to be added to the rare drop pool if this is the case (with a higher rate than serpent stones, perhaps more similar to the drop rate on tit chains or so).

View Postpatriot, on 03 December 2019 - 02:17 AM, said:

Orc Slayer: High damage weapon, no negs or bonuses
Manufacture Level: 35

Manu levels recommended by Patriot are pretty low, I'm supportive of the level of 50 for great swords recommended by Panda, and a slight bump to 60 for two handers. My suggested recipe would thus be:

View Postpatriot, on 03 December 2019 - 02:17 AM, said:

Orc Slayer: High damage weapon, no negs or bonuses
1 Binding Stone
2 Wolfram Bars (NO SERPENT STONES IN WOLFRAM BAR MIX)
40 Fire Essence
10 Steel Bars
20 Titanium Bars
20 Leather
Manufacture Level: 50

For the two-handed weapons I say we make the ingredients more specialized, which goes with the theme that they are more specialized. I suggest the halberd gets more wolfram bars but no other rare ingredients (we'll say the head of the halberd is super dense with wolfram). For the staff of protection I like the basic ingredients but it needs a bit more added to make it more costly. I would suggest 1 enriched magic, 1 enriched water, and 1 binding stone (to bind them together). I'm ok with one of the 2-handers having a serpent stone and spear seems like a nice candidate. I'll suggest we keep the recipe the same as patriot suggested.

Halberd: High damage, low hit/dodge and 2-handed so no shield
5 Wolfram Bars
1 Quarterstaff
100 Fire Essences
50 Death Essence
50 Steel Bars
70 Titanium Bars
Manufacture Level: 60

Staff of Protection: High dodge, low raw damage. 2-handed so no shield
A Book will need added to this, as was not make-able in EL
1 Enriched Magic Essence
1 Enriched Water Essence
1 Binding Stone
1 Quarterstaff
10 Polished Sapphires
100 Magic Essence
100 Life Essence
50 Silver Bars
Manufacture Level: 60

Spear: High damage, 2-handed so no shield. But added accuracy
1 Serpent Stone
4 Wood Logs
95 Fire Essence
40 Steel Bars
65 Titanium Bars
Manufacture Level: 60

I agree with patriot that the break rate on these should be pretty low at these price points. I would say in-line with the break rates of rad rapier in EL with NMT perk.

RM

#56 CoduX

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Posted 23 February 2022 - 04:56 PM

I agree with pretty much everything you said, it's well thought out.

There's only one problem, other than maps and small bug fixes, nothing new has been introduced in years sadly. So probably won't be implemented, but good try




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