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Ranging additions?

ranging buff

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#1 EatsAllLife

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Posted 16 May 2020 - 10:45 PM

Hello, as many of us have been ranging for years, the struggle has been that half of the time, our shots never hit! Why? Simply because our target is far less visible with little-to-no reasonable way to counter!

Currently, light effects visibility (I assume light modifier) thus making the target harder to hit while ranging. At night this is greatly reduced, and unless by a lamp post, count on losing about 50% of your arrows to the ground that you cannot retrieve, as the arrowhead sticks in the dirt or something...
Anyways, the point of this post is a few idea's that have been brainstormed while attempting Thunder Mountain Level 4, which typically falls upon night hours in game.

A thing we have noticed is that ranging is yes, the most expensive, hardest, and longest to level up skill in game compared to any other, but yet it has nothing to raise its levels at all? We thought that we could either A) take a current potion in the game like (engineering) that we could replace with ranging, or even take the AP pot, and re-purpose it.
Another idea would fall more under the magic system, and that would be a spell to create "light" over an affected area. Similar to an engineering totem, but use that as a spell- and it just creates light for illuminate the target (similar to daylight hours, and this would have no effect during the day, unless inside)

Please let us know what you think!

~Eats, and some input from TM Team!

#2 Learner

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 06:47 AM

Perception still affects Ranging! With a Perception of 4, of course it'll be impossible to hit in the cases you mentioned! If you want to be a Ranger, you do need to take Perception or you will be limited.

When the need for Perception was weakened it only affected the range a mob/player appears/disappears at.

#3 EatsAllLife

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 06:40 PM

View PostLearner, on 17 May 2020 - 06:47 AM, said:

Perception still affects Ranging! With a Perception of 4, of course it'll be impossible to hit in the cases you mentioned! If you want to be a Ranger, you do need to take Perception or you will be limited.

When the need for Perception was weakened it only affected the range a mob/player appears/disappears at.

How exactly does it affect ranging? Because if I'm gonna put anything into it, it should have a significant impact- especially matching the detriment that falls with the uselessness of ranging aside from hitting a boss that can't be meleed. I understand wanting to utilize your build to a point, but continually doing this and making players limit themselves even more if they want to use one character, is honestly just pushing your server to be an alt haven. I'd rather have 1 character at 50 ranging and super powerful there, than waste time soft resetting each month because I need to use a different playstyle to make a skill even relatively manageable.

And from my tests, 1000 arrows being shot, only changes the percentage by about 5-6% at MAX perception vs. the base 4. Wow! Now I'm only losing ~450 arrows every 1000 instead of 500! I really hope that 500 gold coins was worth the 46 pickpoints placed here to do so....That's meager in comparison to anything except the sorry excuse that is charm. Both Charm, and perception must work the same, because neither works well, and is a waste of pickpoints as of now. Thus the addition of other factors to ranging, at least summoning you can occasionally summon another and you can keep them alive with magic...

Dexterity, Might, Reaction, Toughness, etc. all directly effects Combat, and that still has several spells and potions to help there... I don't see why asking for 1-2 things to enhance ranging that is already just spam clicks and hoping to hit with a fancy bow and an arrow that does no more damage than my fist. These skills are also all far easier to level than ranging, which is another reason it needs to have another buff. I understand there will be a rework in the future, but saying that for everything only gets so far, and I'm sure players would love to see 2 little things, right now, over waiting years for you to even get there, to see the same changes with a little extra added on that we still have no insight upon.
And please do not say that "camo cloak" helps, because it has no effect on the ranging skill on yourself, only how often you aren't hit by an arrow that is being shot at you from another person- so PK use only.. if that.

And keep in mind, being limited is similar to summoning (limited options on what to do, limited ways to use, high experience though), ranging's limit is the leveling speed... and that the levels don't help much either apparently since all of us at a minimum range in TML4, varying about 20 levels, all hit that monster about the same amount... Ranging literally costs million(s) to get there, and if you average out the experience over time... I get about 12 exp/arrow, so I pay 10 gold for 12 exp... I can pay 14 gold and get 2500 from a cyc...do the math yourself and see why players want something to change there and why perception isn't enough!

~Eats

#4 Warlock

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 07:16 PM

Maybe time for PK/Elemental arrows? ;)

#5 Learner

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 07:45 PM

First of all, make sure you test Perception in the same night time & poor lighting situations! That is where it should be more noticeable. The Perception + Lighting calculation is still in the Ranging calculation!

PS If that calculation isn't there, the lighting wouldn't be a factor at all, and your requested update wouldn't even make a difference.

#6 EatsAllLife

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 09:46 PM

View PostLearner, on 17 May 2020 - 07:45 PM, said:

First of all, make sure you test Perception in the same night time & poor lighting situations! That is where it should be more noticeable. The Perception + Lighting calculation is still in the Ranging calculation!

PS If that calculation isn't there, the lighting wouldn't be a factor at all, and your requested update wouldn't even make a difference.

Even if perception did make a significant difference, what player wants to solely focus on only ranging. In order to put in any PP to make a notable difference, it would need to be maxed out, no? So 46 PP down the drain, and a player only capable of shooting useless training arrows, and using a bow only on bosses, since ya know, you can't range monsters efficiently since you usually can pop one or two before a normal is dead. IF that.

So the point is, what would influence a regular player, not an alt, to focus at all on adding very limited X-Attribs to their ranging to make it better, when the skill has such limited use?

Now, you prefer more team play in this game yes? But yet ranging is completely about teamwork as it stands now, a ranger obviously cannot solo bosses with just their arrows, it would simply regenerate faster than you could do damage with it- not to mention the auto-aggro upon any hit.
So, a team-based-skill/role only should be able to benefit other team members and not get any support? Why should or even would it be only rangers assist themselves with attribs? Why not make it so that the high level mages can cast a temporary light effect over the area, and actually bring use to the few sigils currently useless, and some more magic use for the team?!

Since light only noticeably effects ranging, mages have no reason other than said rangers to cast it, aside from the experience. But a ranger only adding perception to achieve the same thing really just influences a single ranger being preferred over others/just boosting themselves for what purpose? To hit a few more arrows? A whole build designated to saving a few arrows for just night hours in game time really seems dumb... I'd rather see that same ranger heal the tank for 60-80 while on a boss rather than hit a few more of their shots... Especially when looking back to the team aspect, if there are several rangers there- everyone hitting their shots more seems a LOT more beneficial than a select few that put perception on hitting 10 more arrows and everyone else still missing 60 of their shots....

#7 idefix

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 11:55 PM

I think several important points have been made so far. I just want to highlight some of the things that I find most important:

1. Ranging during night-time gets a really big penalty, which is sometimes frustrating with basically no way to work around it.
2. There is effectively no "ranger" role in the game. Both fighters and mages use ranging, though mages more and fighters only during specific big boss fights when hitting is not effective.
3. Currently the only reasonable support build is mage/ranger combo; there is no reason not to range while healing, and there is no reason to get 50 perception, it's absolutely not worth it.

There's basically 2 ways to approach the problem
a. enable the team to work around it somehow (e.g. by allowing the team to produce additional artificial light by building/casting something, as suggested by OP)
b. enable individual players to specialize more into ranging through attributes, perks, and/or items. This is somewhat close to what we already have, with the caveat that perks are not yet in the game (and I'm not sure how effective the ranging perk actually is), and perception is one of the weakest attributes as already discussed.

One option could therefore be to buff perception, which could encourage some mages to sacrifice some pps from hp, mana, carry or nexuses to be spent on perception instead.

Another option could be to add new ranging specific items to the game. As has already been suggested, maybe some PK/elemental arrows. Alternatively, a new rare ranging cape to increase perception further. Maybe a new item: Leather Helmet of Night-Vision. How about elemental or rare bows (Thermal Crossbow?), instead of having the best bow available from NPC? (as comparison, all the good and rare swords are either drops or high lvl manu required)

And maybe having a high perception as a requirement to wear those new special ranging items, so that being a pro ranger would require some sort of sacrifice from other attributes.

#8 Learner

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:41 AM

Ranging as a whole still needs to be reworked due to some flaws in EL's implementation, which is why it's limited to training arrows only. The worst offender is that anything that makes it easier for you to hit you target also increases the chances for a CritHit, making high level rangers with the right stats, equipment, etc also do Crits way too often making them OP.

#9 EatsAllLife

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:05 AM

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ranging as a whole still needs to be reworked due to some flaws in EL's implementation, which is why it's limited to training arrows only. The worst offender is that anything that makes it easier for you to hit you target also increases the chances for a CritHit, making high level rangers with the right stats, equipment, etc also do Crits way too often making them OP.

Those same high level rangers can be wiped out with an armed orc or cyclops if they place their pp into perceptiion.

#10 Learner

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 08:09 AM

View PostEatsAllLife, on 18 May 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ranging as a whole still needs to be reworked due to some flaws in EL's implementation, which is why it's limited to training arrows only. The worst offender is that anything that makes it easier for you to hit you target also increases the chances for a CritHit, making high level rangers with the right stats, equipment, etc also do Crits way too often making them OP.

Those same high level rangers can be wiped out with an armed orc or cyclops if they place their pp into perception.
Yup, they need to decide on what balance they want to have and how to fight, not do everything at once.

#11 EatsAllLife

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 06:41 PM

to

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 08:09 AM, said:

View PostEatsAllLife, on 18 May 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ranging as a whole still needs to be reworked due to some flaws in EL's implementation, which is why it's limited to training arrows only. The worst offender is that anything that makes it easier for you to hit you target also increases the chances for a CritHit, making high level rangers with the right stats, equipment, etc also do Crits way too often making them OP.

Those same high level rangers can be wiped out with an armed orc or cyclops if they place their pp into perception.
Yup, they need to decide on what balance they want to have and how to fight, not do everything at once.

Except they aren't trying to do everything at once. You're stating a ranger would be too OP by that point, but yet they can all be aggro'd and killed in almost any invasion where they'd have use. The limits being placed, you're really essentially just making more skills untouched or useless. I'll just call these OL-Holes though, seems like they become more a feature everyday so...
Let me know how a ranger will ever be OP when I can go over and smack them down in 2-3 hits with my sword with them inflicting nothing on me, cause if they put into perception, they won't have much rationality for offensive magic, since they also need carry to carry the stupid 2 EMU wooden sticks with a rock on the end, so they won't be able to heal for jack, do damage with anything but arrows for much at all. Essentially, they'd be less powerful than a full mixer build, at least they have rationality as a feasible option.

You are also speaking in terms of having all these higher end equipments? The hell are you talking about? Currently, the equipment has no effect on ranging as far as we can tell, whether I'm wearing a padded leather armor, or an iron suit, my ranging is the same. Crits on arrows do what, maybe 12 damage? Even if you did add other arrows, they max would crit no more than a fighter, so again, the OP thing is out the window and I really don't see how it could ever be, since the skill itself is so weak to begin with.

#12 Learner

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 06:47 PM

View PostEatsAllLife, on 18 May 2020 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 08:09 AM, said:

View PostEatsAllLife, on 18 May 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ranging as a whole still needs to be reworked due to some flaws in EL's implementation, which is why it's limited to training arrows only. The worst offender is that anything that makes it easier for you to hit you target also increases the chances for a CritHit, making high level rangers with the right stats, equipment, etc also do Crits way too often making them OP.

Those same high level rangers can be wiped out with an armed orc or cyclops if they place their pp into perception.
Yup, they need to decide on what balance they want to have and how to fight, not do everything at once.

Except they aren't trying to do everything at once. You're stating a ranger would be too OP by that point, but yet they can all be aggro'd and killed in almost any invasion where they'd have use. The limits being placed, you're really essentially just making more skills untouched or useless. I'll just call these OL-Holes though, seems like they become more a feature everyday though. Let me know how a ranger will ever be OP when I can go over and smack them down in 2-3 hits with my sword with them inflicting nothing on me, cause if they put into perception, they won't have much rationality, since they also need carry to carry the stupid 2 EMU wooden sticks with a rock on the end, so they won't be able to heal for jack, do damage with anything but arrows for much at all. Essentially, they'd be less powerful than a full mixer build, at least they have rationality as a feasible option.

You are also speaking in terms of having all these higher end equipments? The hell are you talking about? Currently, the equipment has no effect on ranging as far as we can tell, whether I'm wearing a padded leather armor, or an iron suit, my ranging is the same. Crits on arrows do what, maybe 12 damage? Even if you did add other arrows, they max would crit no more than a fighter, so again, the OP thing is out the window and I really don't see how it could ever be, since the skill itself is so weak to begin with.
I'm just saying Ranging does still need work and I need to avoid some of the problems EL has. For example, a Fighter in EL doesn't increase his chance to Crit just by increasing his chance to Hit, but in Ranging any increase to chance to hit also increases the chance to Crit ... including AP pots!

#13 EatsAllLife

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:15 PM

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 06:47 PM, said:

View PostEatsAllLife, on 18 May 2020 - 06:41 PM, said:

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 08:09 AM, said:

View PostEatsAllLife, on 18 May 2020 - 08:05 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 07:41 AM, said:

Ranging as a whole still needs to be reworked due to some flaws in EL's implementation, which is why it's limited to training arrows only. The worst offender is that anything that makes it easier for you to hit you target also increases the chances for a CritHit, making high level rangers with the right stats, equipment, etc also do Crits way too often making them OP.

Those same high level rangers can be wiped out with an armed orc or cyclops if they place their pp into perception.
Yup, they need to decide on what balance they want to have and how to fight, not do everything at once.

Except they aren't trying to do everything at once. You're stating a ranger would be too OP by that point, but yet they can all be aggro'd and killed in almost any invasion where they'd have use. The limits being placed, you're really essentially just making more skills untouched or useless. I'll just call these OL-Holes though, seems like they become more a feature everyday though. Let me know how a ranger will ever be OP when I can go over and smack them down in 2-3 hits with my sword with them inflicting nothing on me, cause if they put into perception, they won't have much rationality, since they also need carry to carry the stupid 2 EMU wooden sticks with a rock on the end, so they won't be able to heal for jack, do damage with anything but arrows for much at all. Essentially, they'd be less powerful than a full mixer build, at least they have rationality as a feasible option.

You are also speaking in terms of having all these higher end equipments? The hell are you talking about? Currently, the equipment has no effect on ranging as far as we can tell, whether I'm wearing a padded leather armor, or an iron suit, my ranging is the same. Crits on arrows do what, maybe 12 damage? Even if you did add other arrows, they max would crit no more than a fighter, so again, the OP thing is out the window and I really don't see how it could ever be, since the skill itself is so weak to begin with.
I'm just saying Ranging does still need work and I need to avoid some of the problems EL has. For example, a Fighter in EL doesn't increase his chance to Crit just by increasing his chance to Hit, but in Ranging any increase to chance to hit also increases the chance to Crit ... including AP pots!

Well the AP pots aren't an issue here, as suggested initially, we want those just changed to a regular skill pot if they will be in game... and I'm just saying, even with ranging still needing work, a ranger hits far less than a hitter anyways, so what detriment could this give? As a fighter, I may not crit every turn, but that crit only adds maybe 10 damage. I still do 20-40 per regular hit, a ranger does 1/2-1/4 that in normal damage, and a crit is still less powerful than a normal hit from a sword... You want people to put into perception, but then if they do, it's an issue of being OP, there is no middle ground here, and it is just starting to seem the best bet would be removing perception and then it isn't a factor at all.
All we have wanted, is just wanting the same possibility at a night hour, which can be achieved already by light posts, so a spell to cast some light, and a potion to add a few levels, won't change any of that, let alone to the extreme you're thinking. Don't act like there will ever be 10 rangers all critting the same target at the same time, when we can barely get 10 people to even fight at the same time. I also don't have to spend money for every single attempt... You seem to keep forgetting that as well. A training arrow is already costly, so these "higher up" arrows, won't be base use as you are implying, if they ever even get added.

I guess simply stating. Stop basing your game off of possibilities, and start doing something with what is there, I guarantee no player here, wants to keep hearing "when this changes" "when this happens" "when this starts" cause that when, is outside of our field of view, and if you have to completely rework ranging to get a simple addition, it's gonna fall away the same as Magic did, the same as people are starting to view perks, the same as new items being added, the same as better spawns, the same as various other things that needed "fixing" from EL. They may need to be fixed, but at least they marginally worked better, unlike the current garbage disposal that is ranging..

#14 Learner

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Posted 18 May 2020 - 07:22 PM

We first need to address the basic issues in Ranging before trying to Enhance it! Have you even testing on Test if Perception helps at night for example???

#15 EatsAllLife

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 06:50 AM

View PostLearner, on 18 May 2020 - 07:22 PM, said:

We first need to address the basic issues in Ranging before trying to Enhance it! Have you even testing on Test if Perception helps at night for example???

Yes, actually. That's why I know it isn't worth it. The addition as you can see below; both being night time hours (falling from after 3:30 to before 00:30) that the success rate from 46 additional pick points into perception is only a mere 15% accuracy gain, and I actually had a smaller critical rate in comparison. So no, criticals aren't being hit more, just more arrows are hitting, giving the illusion that more criticals are being hit (technically speaking, this is saying that over the same amount of time- more criticals may be hit, but over the same amount of arrows, less criticals are occuring.)

(For some reason, I can't make images post here, I tried 4 different sites to post from. Fuck these forums, follow my damn google drive link)
https://drive.google...9msZ9JS_YQ4w1WA

This being said, I don't think that the additional 2k gold saved in my test, is worth putting into perception, especially not when it is only really needed to be helping me at night time, and other times it is utterly useless, and since this topic isn't speaking in terms of ranging in the day time, and my proposed idea is mainly affecting night time, and the potion is all-round not changing anything already there, I see no reason for another potential remedy to be added in the meantime.

~Eats

#16 ohmygod

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 07:11 AM

How high level in this skill do you need to be to be considered "high level" and not miss much regardless of the light?

Considering that the hard cap on the any OL skill is 105, one would think that a level 50 ranger would miss more than half the time if they didn't stack their perception attributes (that only works for half the day :P) shooting at a boss 3-4 times their CL.

The cost of leveling range will reduce when the ranging perks are completed, which L said he was working on finishing before he was so rudely interrupted by someone abusing a "ranging bug". I also note that ranging with a tank increases xp/arrow (with bonus xp for each kill) and players now can level this skill faster than previously so, correct me if I am wrong but, according to L if you put the work in and level your range to mid 90s and you can be OP and not miss much and get crits more often than not with training arrows!!

IMO just be happy that we are being trickle fed some new weapons to play with after all these years. The bosses will seem a shit-load easier when your TM4 team gets some more decent levels, gear dropping/made and perks finalized.

#17 EatsAllLife

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 07:34 AM

View Postohmygod, on 19 May 2020 - 07:11 AM, said:

How high level in this skill do you need to be to be considered "high level" and not miss much regardless of the light?

Considering that the hard cap on the any OL skill is 105, one would think that a level 50 ranger would miss more than half the time if they didn't stack their perception attributes (that only works for half the day Posted Image) shooting at a boss 3-4 times their CL.

The cost of leveling range will reduce when the ranging perks are completed, which L said he was working on finishing before he was so rudely interrupted by someone abusing a "ranging bug". I also note that ranging with a tank increases xp/arrow (with bonus xp for each kill) and players now can level this skill faster than previously so, correct me if I am wrong but, according to L if you put the work in and level your range to mid 90s and you can be OP and not miss much and get crits more often than not with training arrows!!

IMO just be happy that we are being trickle fed some new weapons to play with after all these years. The bosses will seem a shit-load easier when your TM4 team gets some more decent levels, gear dropping/made and perks finalized.

I'd also like to note that the lower exp one, being the one done on TML4, was done with tanks. Also, the new weapons have been here a while, and recently had just started dropping more- those aren't a recent change. As for more decent levels, gear dropping/made, and perks. Last I checked, Warlock's a/d is the same as yours, mine isn't too far below, the gear we use is generally far more rare, bows have nothing more rare than elven and training arrows, we aren't ever going to be getting further than iron armors from my general understanding anytime that's been mentioned, and levels have taken this long to get there already for 1/2 the team that is there most of the time lol. If high 80's and mid 90's isn't good enough, and maxing isn't the point of the game as so previously mentioned on VARIOUS different threads. The objective isn't, or at least shouldn't, to be getting the highest level reasonably possible in game (90's) and in ranging (50-60's as stands) to achieve the best teamwork as you just suggested.

Perks aren't going to magically make this skill a main skill, ranging will always be a subskill and needs to be treated as that. There isn't going to be a point where a ranger will be able to range kill monsters effectively on their own, so why would a build be priotitized around that on a main character? If I'm not gonna put my already limited pick points into ranging, why the hell would I put 1 of my even more valuable perk points into it to only be used at the SAME rate? and correct me if I'm wrong, these perks still change nothing at night?

#18 Learner

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 08:40 AM

And once Ranging has been re-evaluated & re-balanced and more arrow types are added, you'll get to rerun all the testing, since the accuracy does vary by the type of arrow/bolt, and training arrows have no modifiers on that at all.

#19 EatsAllLife

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Posted 19 May 2020 - 05:30 PM

View PostLearner, on 19 May 2020 - 08:40 AM, said:

And once Ranging has been re-evaluated & re-balanced and more arrow types are added, you'll get to rerun all the testing, since the accuracy does vary by the type of arrow/bolt, and training arrows have no modifiers on that at all.

And once that is done we can do it then, but since it isn't now, let's focus on a few minor additions in the near future, rather than a whole system rework that will take far longer. Cause once those are added, it could be another 8 years of waiting like we did for the better swords to start dropping.





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