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Our Cold War. Mixers VS. Fighters. - NOT OFFICIAL


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Poll: Unofficial Poll Mix vs Combat (88 member(s) have cast votes)

Should being able to craft the highest end items have some negative impact on combat strength and should being tweaked for maximum combat strength mean you cannot craft high end items?

  1. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  2. I don't know (4 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  3. NO (68 votes [77.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.27%

Should the degree of negative impact on combat strength increase with the amount of mixing skills you are able to perform at their maximum?

  1. No (15 votes [17.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.05%

  2. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  3. I voted No on the first question (54 votes [61.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.36%

  4. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

As a broad and general question; How much decrease to combat strength should be felt for having mixing ability?

  1. Only a little (9 votes [10.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.23%

  2. A moderate amount (7 votes [7.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.95%

  3. Quite a lot (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

  4. I voted No to the first question (66 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  5. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

Vote

#21 anemone

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:22 AM

With 100 level soft cap and the time it takes to get there i voted No. Penalty is the time you need to level a skill and the gold you need to buy books.

#22 Dilly

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:00 AM

No, no and no.

Why should hard work be punished? If someone wants it all, and is willing and able to invest the time to level both a/d as well as the supportive skills, they should not be penalised.

What i could accept though is that the requirements to be able to mix something are actual a/d levels or perhaps even a magic level in the case of crafting.

#23 LuciferX

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:24 AM

Mixing has nothing to do with fighting so there should be no penalty if a fighter wants to make potions or try another skill.  why take away from the fun.  let the fighters mix with no penalty when they feel like taking a break from killing the critters.

looking at it from a different perspective, Would it be logical to penalize the mixers when they want to level a/d? No that sounds rediculous!  then why do it to the fighters.

#24 Bat17

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:38 AM

View PostDilly, on 08 October 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

What i could accept though is that the requirements to be able to mix something are actual a/d levels or perhaps even a magic level in the case of crafting.

OK as long as fighter can only wear armour after they achive the manu lvl to make it first!

Bat17

#25 Torg

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:35 AM

I voted no because as was pointed out earlier, one of the reasons I liked the idea of EL was because you weren't (meant to be) trapped into any one single category.


I understand the concerns of the people saying that time isn't an issue. It is an issue if you only play 12 hours a week. Those sorts of players are the ones I would like to think we can attract and therefore I don't think that anything that restricts them is a good thing.

About balance for those that can play for much longer times and can level everything to 50's in a month or 2... maybe there should be a system where you can choose small number of nexus (1-3) to give you a boost (rather than a penalty) in whichever skill you choose.... but... that these nexus can be reassigned. However, there is a limit to how often the nexus can be reassigned. Maybe they can't be changed for 2 rl weeks after an adjustment.

So, if someone that is primarily a mixer wants to focus on levelling a/d for a while they can choose to shift their nexus to ones that give a bonus to a/d to help them level slightly faster and even things out in PK a little.
However, because this is a longer term change, they will have to decide if they want to lose their mixing advantage for 2 weeks if they want a quick play in PK/PVE.

Likewise for a fighter, would they be willing to sacrifice their bonuses if they wanted to mix? Maybe if they choose to spend a couple of weeks (or more) levelling their mixing skills it would be a worthwhile sacrifice.

I don't know if this idea is (or could be) balanced, but hopefully there are some useful ideas in it.


I believe that there should be no permanent restrictions on anyone. However, I also don't think people should be able to simply switch from one to the other constantly.

#26 kav

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:20 AM

Voted no to first question, 2&3 same. I don't believe anyone should be penalised for hard work & time they decide to put into whatever skill.

Speaking from a competitive PK PoV, I'd like to compete against people who might spend the majority of their time mixing shit but when the time comes for them to enter a PK zone I'd like a challenge, not them being substantially weaker than me & everyone else who chooses to be a 'purist' combat trainer.

#27 Korrode

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 10:14 AM

View Postgroomsh, on 08 October 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

No.
No.
No.
In theory, anyone who voted No on the first question should not be voting no on the 2nd question, they should be voting for "I voted No on the first question" :P but since no to the first question is easily winning it doesn't matter anyway.

Anyways it's certainly looking like we're not going to be having nexus requirements for mixing.
So the next poll should be to completely throw out EL's nexus system.
Soon i'll buy a poll for if we want to use the nexus system for being able to equip different types of gear (melee gear, ranged gear, mage gear, summoner gear).
Then we could make a poll for kav's thread.

#28 SolarStar

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:14 PM

I honestly don't know how to vote because I don't understand the question.

#29 bog

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:45 PM

View PostSolarStar, on 08 October 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I honestly don't know how to vote because I don't understand the question.

In OL, it seems people would like to be able to think of new and inovative ways of building a characters core skills

this is not attributes ? ( i mean my next point - others have better ideas on attributes than me )  but nexus -- how do you define the required adjustment between finding a skill you work the most at but also having perhaps 2-3 other skills. Yes the Nexus system is a wise one
But should you have to spend over 20 nexus to sample the arts of OL ? Or could you live with being able to adjust your focus more readily, more to hand, more spur of the moment with only your Loot to loose and not 8 months of re building your all ready time invested man/woman/elf/orc/dwarf or *shudder*
( gnome )

#30 Schmurk

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostKorrode, on 08 October 2012 - 10:14 AM, said:

Anyways it's certainly looking like we're not going to be having nexus requirements for mixing.
Then the question was not clear enough I think. After reading the questions and a few posts in this thread (I apologize, I probably didn't read them all because of lack of time), it was more about giving a penalty to mixers according to their level which is totally non sense. Because when you have levels in a skill, you have no way to remove them so if you're fed up with mixing and want to do something else, the only solution is to start a new char from scratch.
And BTW, in this case, why not giving penalty to fighters when they want to mix something because it is well know that muscles shrinks brain size. :P
So I voted a big NO to this poll.

However, if the question was 'Do we need nexus requirements for mixing?', I would have answered yes. (I know, it's against what I said in others threads :P)
After thinking about it, with the cap the situation here will be totally different from the one in EL. Because after the cap, if you don't need to train anymore, you'll have time to do mixing and if you can do it w/o any requirements then it'll be bad for the economy.
So having nexus requirements for mixing is needed IMO but at only one condition: to have the possibility to remove nexus points more easily than in EL, with cheaper nexus removals or with soft resets.

#31 Korrode

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:59 AM

View PostSchmurk, on 09 October 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

However, if the question was 'Do we need nexus requirements for mixing?', I would have answered yes. (I know, it's against what I said in others threads :P)
Well the nexuses cannot be gained using the same points that are spent on attributes, if they are then mixers receive a combat strength reduction compared to a combat 'purist'.



View PostSolarStar, on 08 October 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I honestly don't know how to vote because I don't understand the question.
Solar, i've many times over the years seen you on the EL forums struggling to properly grasp what's going on or to grasp the full scope of things, making suggestions that fail to consider key relevant factors, etc....


There's nothing more I can say to you that won't start sounding really nasty.

#32 themuntdregger

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:52 AM

View PostSchmurk, on 09 October 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

Then the question was not clear enough I think. After reading the questions and a few posts in this thread (I apologize, I probably didn't read them all because of lack of time), it was more about giving a penalty to mixers according to their level which is totally non sense. Because when you have levels in a skill, you have no way to remove them so if you're fed up with mixing and want to do something else, the only solution is to start a new char from scratch.
And BTW, in this case, why not giving penalty to fighters when they want to mix something because it is well know that muscles shrinks brain size. :P
So I voted a big NO to this poll.

However, if the question was 'Do we need nexus requirements for mixing?', I would have answered yes. (I know, it's against what I said in others threads :P)
After thinking about it, with the cap the situation here will be totally different from the one in EL. Because after the cap, if you don't need to train anymore, you'll have time to do mixing and if you can do it w/o any requirements then it'll be bad for the economy.
So having nexus requirements for mixing is needed IMO but at only one condition: to have the possibility to remove nexus points more easily than in EL, with cheaper nexus removals or with soft resets.

+1 Schmurk.

I see lots of fighters arguing that they should have their cake and eat it. However, the danger is that, if they have their way, they'll end up choking on it.

If you remove the need for fighters to buy from mixers, you effectively remove both the rationale for having mixers in the first place. If that happens the logical conclusion is you are going to see fighters spending a lot less time doing what they really like doing (mindlessly killing anything that moves and shouting OORAH at each other), and an awful lot more time stuck in places like Crystal Caves wielding a pickaxe rather than a sword. A balanced economy relies on having mutually exclusive skills that are exchanged through trade. Indeed the fact that skills are mutually exclusive is the primary engine for trade, hence, remove that aspect and you may as well tear up any idea of having a balanced economy.

If fighters want to mix because they've reached the cap, by all means let them reset and become a mixer and (as one poster put it) "experience the full glory of the game".

#33 Aislinn

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:30 AM

No nexus versus reduced nexus is a huge issue still, and not part of the question in this thread, in my opinion.
Part of needing nexus for multiple skills is bundled into the "time" factor, which in itself is a "penalty".  This issue still is to be determined.

And this is where I had the issue with a cap because it limits the ability eventually to do everything.  Even if it takes years, at least it would be possible because there is not a limit on pickpoints available.

To address a comment above: I would certainly object to the only way to be an all-arounder would be to level to cap one skill, only to have to reset all my nexus/attributes to attempt another skill only after I reached cap in the first skill.  That isn't the point of being an all-arounder at all and I would fight against that.   It's FUN to dabble in ALL skills at ANY time as one's whim dictates.  It's a game, I am looking to have fun, not be pigeonholed into one or two skills.

Also, just because one CAN supply oneself, doesn't mean one wants to or will.

#34 Korrode

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 08:03 AM

View PostAislinn, on 09 October 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

Also, just because one CAN supply oneself, doesn't mean one wants to or will.
Indeed.
Also everyone talks like every fighter is going to level every mixing skill. It's pretty funny. I know how many mixing skills ima be leveling...

#35 themuntdregger

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:03 AM

Sorry Aislinn, but if the poll says "Should being able to craft the highest end items have some negative impact on combat strength and should being tweaked for maximum combat strength mean you cannot craft high end items?" then surely it's reasonable to conclude that it was intended to cover all in-game factors that determine a negative impact on combat strength including nexus ???

I disagree that the effect of the cap is to stop players dabbling in all skills. Clearly there's no need to place all pp's in one place unless the intended strategy is to create a char that majors excels in one particular ability to the ultimate extent. Necessarilly, if players choose to do that, unless the nature and extent of wider of the general penalty balances with the specific advantage, then it seems inevitable that the result will be pretty sterile and one dimensioned game play.

I'd also disagree with your point "just because one CAN supply oneself, doesn't mean one wants to or will", if simply because the ability to supply oneself is entirely dependent on being able to. Yes I agree that some players won't resupply themselves simply because they can't be assed, or don't have the time, but the number who do (either wholly or partially) will certainly increase. At that point, economics 101 suggests that 'supply' will outstrip 'demand' and the game will cease to support significant numbers of players that prefer to just mix and trade. At that point, what exactly would prefer that ppl like myself did ???

We would all like to just "dabble in ALL skills at ANY time as one's WHIM dictates", but the idea that its actually possible is just as poorly supported in real life as it is here.

#36 Aislinn

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:09 AM

And yet look at the poll and comments.
It would appear most people disagree with you, not me.
It's about what makes a "better" game.  And ultimately, that means more people ENJOY it.  Otherwise even Harvard's Economics 450 won't mean squat if nobody is here to play it.  The economics aspect has to be worked to suit what people want to do.

Now be a good little troll and run off to unofficial to point and laugh at me. ;)

#37 Dilly

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:52 PM

touché, I'd say ;)

#38 bog

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:09 PM

View PostDilly, on 09 October 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

touché, I'd say ;)

*slightly off topic forgive me i get back to it * there is no duelling yet in OL but its a good suggestion, it made me wonder though .. is it such a good idea as people such as myself or aislinn will have a screen full of people wanting to '' duel '' with us , because we are annoying :) i say this with the utmost understanding and due respect of my own ability to annoy

but, someone did all ready mention that you can combine this '' too many nexus to fight '' thing. It is not easy to understand because the very system we are basing are understanding of, is changing. So even fascinating suggestions made tomorrow might have no relevence because people didnt grasp concept D ......... whatever that may be in the new systems. Ive seen this all ready and seeing it again.

People dont want to troll here, or at least , everyone ive seen here from the speak easy, they want to make sound contributions that have been discussed and voted on by understanding members of the MMo world

they don wanna fight :P just like even given the opportunity of a lifetime to make your own grvs of ubber def, people just dont want to :P they likey other things, and if you designed a good enough and in depth enough system of nexus re distribution where you could never become Tank / Mage / Summoner / Potter King all in one toon ( which btfw is exactly what happened elsewhere in your ''we dont have a class system'' ideology ) people would all ways have to rely on each other in well balanced MMO , but hey , lets all be one man mixing armies ? this is not what korrode is suggesting

#39 themuntdregger

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

Aislinn and Dilly (plus anyone else who desperately wants to settle scores)

Unlike EL, Other Life conveniently provides you with a means to deal with this kind of issue fairly, openly and without derailing threads with your own personal agenda's. If you don't like what i'm posting and honestly feel that i'm simply here to troll, or even whether you just feel (for the best possible reasons ofc) that the community need to be protected from me, then do us all the courtesy of taking the issue to the membership forum.

I'll be happy to oblige all of you there to your heart's content. Failing that, either respond sensibly to the points raised or please do us all a favour and simply put up, or shut the fuck up.

I can put it no more simply than that

#40 Aislinn

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 02:27 PM

I don't agree with you.

I don't have to shut up, nor am I obligated to respond to anything you say, let alone in a manner you dictate. If you can't understand my points, that is on your head, not mine.  If you do not agree with me, I don't care.  Please take your personal grudge elsewhere.




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