Jump to content

  •  

Our Cold War. Mixers VS. Fighters. - NOT OFFICIAL


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
89 replies to this topic

Poll: Unofficial Poll Mix vs Combat (88 member(s) have cast votes)

Should being able to craft the highest end items have some negative impact on combat strength and should being tweaked for maximum combat strength mean you cannot craft high end items?

  1. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  2. I don't know (4 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  3. NO (68 votes [77.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.27%

Should the degree of negative impact on combat strength increase with the amount of mixing skills you are able to perform at their maximum?

  1. No (15 votes [17.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.05%

  2. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  3. I voted No on the first question (54 votes [61.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.36%

  4. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

As a broad and general question; How much decrease to combat strength should be felt for having mixing ability?

  1. Only a little (9 votes [10.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.23%

  2. A moderate amount (7 votes [7.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.95%

  3. Quite a lot (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

  4. I voted No to the first question (66 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  5. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

Vote

#41 Dilly

Dilly

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 83 posts

Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:41 PM

my only reason for saying touché to aislinn's post is that i feel people have been coming down way too hard on her. We all expect to be treated as if we do not have any bad past, any reputation, any history from another game and can just express our opinions (clearly formed nonetheless by our past experiences in EL), but when Aislinn does the same she still gets treated like 'dat evil ubbermodwoman'. I'm not here to flame, I'm not here to troll and I'm certainly not out to go against anyone's ideas based on my personal opinion of the person in question.

Can you say the same, themuntdregger?

Furthermore, I do agree with Aislinn:  I don't have to shut up, nor am I obligated to respond to anything you say, let alone in a manner you dictate. If you can't understand my points, that is on your head, not mine. If you do not agree with me, I don't care. Please take your personal grudge elsewhere.

#42 themuntdregger

themuntdregger

    Official Troll

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1001 posts
  • LocationBehind you

Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

No one has a problem with you expressing your points Aislinn, as far as they relate to the topic. I might be in a minority, but I do at least welcome them. All i'm asking is that you take the silliness, name calling and personal antipathy outside of this discussion. The fact that I might disagree with you now clearly hasn't stopped me agreeing with you in other threads, now has it ?

Not everyone who disagrees with you does so because of a personal grudge. Some of us may do it simply because you are wrong.

Dilly said:

I'm not here to flame, I'm not here to troll and I'm certainly not out to go against anyone's ideas based on my personal opinion of the person in question. Can you say the same, themuntdregger?
Honestly Dilly, this isn't really helping or fair.

#43 Korrode

Korrode

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 417 posts
  • LocationMelburn, Strayamate.

Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:21 PM

View PostaTeh, on 09 October 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

lets all be one man mixing armies ? this is not what korrode is suggesting
I'm not suggesting anything :P I didn't even state an opinion in the initial post.

I made this poll because it's important to a lot of other people and a precursor to other systems being developed. I'm a good choice to present it neutrally because the outcome has little impact on me personally.

#44 AlddrA

AlddrA

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:41 PM

I voted no to the first question......mixing skills should not have any negative effects on fighters in the least.

#45 Jade

Jade

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 143 posts

Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:55 PM

I agree with aislinn and dilly 100%. On el, my original char was an all arounder. I couldnt make high end armor, or high end crafting items but could make augs, reg weapons, tele rings, basically anything i needed. but even though i enjoy fighting/pk i didnt stand a chance since i had 30 nexus.

I wanted to level all skills but it didnt mean i liked every one of the skills i did. I could make swords but preferred to buy them cause it was just too much work and time for me to harvest/mix at the time. And i didnt really enjoy the skill. The point was i could make it if i HAD to.

With mixers being so penalized there was limited pk. Not because ppl didnt want to pk but because they couldnt. Let mixers get the attributes without penalizing them so more ppl CAN pk.

If your so worried about the economy and ppl being able to do everything then make nexus earned differently from attributes, limit the nexus that can be used at one time and offer the transfer stones. Mixers can level anything they want, but not at the same time. And their fighting ability wont suffer.

#46 themuntdregger

themuntdregger

    Official Troll

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1001 posts
  • LocationBehind you

Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:18 PM

View PostJade, on 14 October 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

If your so worried about the economy and ppl being able to do everything then make nexus earned differently from attributes, limit the nexus that can be used at one time and offer the transfer stones. Mixers can level anything they want, but not at the same time. And their fighting ability wont suffer.

Ok, I don't understand quite how this works, but i'm interested to know more, ie how would nexus be earned differently from attributes, and how would the transfer stones operate ???

#47 Jade

Jade

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 143 posts

Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:32 PM

You could earn them with oa's, was discussed before. like 1 every 5 oa's or something, Or by reaching skill levels.Reach level 10 harvest - earn a nexus. etc.  reduce the nexus needed for stuff so you dont need 6 per skill, maybe do away with needing nexus to harvest certain things etc. The transfer stones can act like did in el. allow them to moved around and if they cant be used for attributes you would have to put into another nexus category.

Example: Nexus cap of say 10

I have 3 human for my armor/swords

I have 4 veg to make potions. I reach a level i want to reach and decide i want to craft. I would buy nexus transfer stones. This allows me to move  3 veg nexus into magic nexus. One veg into arti.

I still have 3 more nexus to earn to make higher end items.

#48 AlddrA

AlddrA

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 671 posts
  • LocationCanada

Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:55 PM

The better idea is to have fewer nexus needed for the various skills,  By allowing only a certain amount of nexus total actually penalizes mixers....that is even more unfair for those who choose to just harvest and mix!!!

#49 themuntdregger

themuntdregger

    Official Troll

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1001 posts
  • LocationBehind you

Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:53 PM

I can see two reasons for having nexus :

a) It forces a diversity of char builds, which is a critical factor in creating an economy.

b )It creates a money sink through the need of players to buy nexus transfer stones from npc's (or conversely $$$ income if bought from the shop).

As far as a) is concerned, there are other ways to achieve the same ends, eg by using skill experience and attributes. However, the problem with such a system is that it only starts to work where higher levels of experience are required to undertake an activity. Where only low levels of experience are required, the system breaks down as the barriers to anyone being able to undertake those activities are not sufficiently large. That's not an issue where low experience activities don't create easy  self-sufficiencies. However, where it does, the effect will necessarily be to reduce trade and economic balance.

Without a nexus system to regulate low experience activities, it would be necessary to compensate by significantly increase the experience level at which lower end activities can be undertaken. However, that would introduce even more grind into the early stages of the game.  However, beyond the lower end skills, nexus seems to have a diminishing relevance or use. Under the circumstances, I can maybe see an argument for reducing amounts of required nexus to undertake activities.

#50 Meneldor

Meneldor

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 145 posts

Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:33 AM

....

#51 themuntdregger

themuntdregger

    Official Troll

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1001 posts
  • LocationBehind you

Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:17 PM

What exactly  ?

#52 mistral

mistral

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 21 posts

Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

View Postthemuntdregger, on 14 October 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I can see two reasons for having nexus :

a) It forces a diversity of char builds, which is a critical factor in creating an economy.

b )It creates a money sink through the need of players to buy nexus transfer stones from npc's (or conversely $$$ income if bought from the shop).

As far as a) is concerned, there are other ways to achieve the same ends, eg by using skill experience and attributes. However, the problem with such a system is that it only starts to work where higher levels of experience are required to undertake an activity. Where only low levels of experience are required, the system breaks down as the barriers to anyone being able to undertake those activities are not sufficiently large. That's not an issue where low experience activities don't create easy  self-sufficiencies. However, where it does, the effect will necessarily be to reduce trade and economic balance.

Without a nexus system to regulate low experience activities, it would be necessary to compensate by significantly increase the experience level at which lower end activities can be undertaken. However, that would introduce even more grind into the early stages of the game.  However, beyond the lower end skills, nexus seems to have a diminishing relevance or use. Under the circumstances, I can maybe see an argument for reducing amounts of required nexus to undertake activities.

imho in EL biggest market was not high end manu items , or high end crafting items etc ... it was essenses (alchemy (that you didnt need to have nexus) . It s more about having time or how you want to spend your time in a game, that makes the economy move

#53 PandemiC

PandemiC

    Advanced Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 628 posts
  • LocationLondon, United Kingdom

Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:30 AM

If anyone wants proof of how squishy all rounders or even semi-pro-mixers are just take a look at myself.

23 Nexus. 21/23 I'd say are well used, 2 animal is pretty useless but I needed it for levelling nevertheless.

That's the most nexus I need really with hydro and other things blocked.
4 Human | 2 Animal | 5 Vegetal | 4 Inorg | 5 Artifical | 3 Magic

FYI I'm 57 almost 58 oa, and 20/20 P/C (2 PP spare). Most stats are L30-45.

That's just to be able to 'go solo'; or even supply you with all those dis+damage rings, all those aug sets etc :P

IMHO It is way to many nexus needed for such little avail. PP.

I propose to use malameo's unofficial-semi-proposed 0-1-2-3 nexus system. I'd much prefer to use that than the current one. Prehaps even less....

Just fix it pls<3

#54 Grendous

Grendous

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 101 posts

Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

The excuse it forces unique char builds is total bs. With the limited amount of pps each char should still be unique even if nexus didn't use pps at all. Some of the people posting comments aren't playing game or so I've been told. Nexus as quests rewards is the better solution from my stand point.

#55 bog

bog

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 172 posts
  • LocationEarth

Posted 22 October 2012 - 03:11 PM

High OA is needed to be a great mixer, either that or devious plans to employ the newbs, like starting  newbie guild where you get the newbs alching your ess and bars and then show them weird and useless things on the way to mass leveling your fav' skill. Hmm anyway maybe im wrong on that lol

Humor aside [/end humor] the relation of Nexus to OA means because generally, the mixing skill requires a lot of harvesting - you dont speed your OA up all that high ( especially not at lower levels ) which does make you feel very, very poor on the battlefield

but so it should, I do appreciate that everyone is re defining the egg here but dont make it easy. If everyone is capable of making their own dragon boots and then serping the dragon with a sword they made themselves later, well you just designed and implemented a single player cash game ( which, incidentally is exactly what 90% of the Korean/Japanese WOW rip offs look like and they are shit )

perhaps if there was a way to negate the need for the nexus being the way you gain enough ''dedication'' to the skill, it would not be such a worry -- by making it so you must visit the Gods to advance in later skills, because the Gods have natural enemies all ready and would stop you being able to advance in just every skill by demanding your dedication to them. Idk , today I dont like the idea of making nexus requirements so minimal, it generates the kind of MMO where you dont MMO at all if you can help it other than to sell to player A or if you really really feel social, type Hi to someone every 2 months

#56 themuntdregger

themuntdregger

    Official Troll

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 1001 posts
  • LocationBehind you

Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:19 PM

View PostGrendous, on 22 October 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

The excuse it forces unique char builds is total bs. With the limited amount of pps each char should still be unique even if nexus didn't use pps at all. Some of the people posting comments aren't playing game or so I've been told. Nexus as quests rewards is the better solution from my stand point.

I think you miss the point so damn far, even a dog sled pulled by a crack team of husky's would be pretty hard pressed to find you. Still, lets see if we can't haul the frozen remains of your 'logic' (not to mention the decaying corpse of your communication skills) back to the land of polite, reasonable and constructive discussion.

Ok, so lets start with a short 101 in mmorpg economics (courtesy of that nice Mr Castronova et al). An economy can be defined as the trading of resources between those that have them, and those who don't.  Hence, it's fair to say that trade will not arise unless there is some inequity of resource. Irl, you just might have noticed that we have this massive advantage of environmental, geographical and political factors all conspiring so as trade is an unavoidable and continuing fact of life. Now, brace yourself as I know this will come as huge shock, but in the virtual world of the mmorpg economy, we are not nearly so lucky. Indeed, a whole lot of meticulous and detailed planning must go into ensuring that you rarely, if ever, get everything you want and, even when you do, you don't get to keep it for very long. Why ??? Because, because your fun ultimately depends on challenge, and challenge is all about making life difficult for you (kind of like i'm doing to you now - no, please don't thank me). :P

Now, let return to the thorny issue of nexus and it's specific purpose in making your life difficult. Nexus  acts to create inequity, the wonderful irony being that, the better you want to be at something in-game, the more it forces you to depend on others to achieve that. However, unlike say attributes or experience, which create higher level inequities, nexus acts to create inequities at the lower level. Why is this necessary ? Well, not only do these low level items form a significant part of what's traded in the in-game economy, they are also the stepping stones by which those of lower experience, and attributes progress on to higher level items. Indeed, the mere fact that you create a significant market in lower level items is the fundamental mechanism that enables new players to progress, and what gives existing players the ability to fulfil to reach their full potential (either in killing and breaking, or alternatively, in making and trading).

Now, imagine the situation where you remove nexus and every tom dick and pk-weeny is able to mix his own underpants. What's going to happen is that you're going to ruin all that carefully contrived inequity, the consequence of which is going to be less demand for the game's basic items, huge oversupply and prices falling below the cost of the ings.  Now I could explain the inevitable consequences of that but, tbh, Mr Castronova et al does it so much better than I ever could. Might I suggest you add his worthy tome, 'Virtual Worlds',  as part of your essential bedtime reading, or at least ask Santa if he could see his way clear to dropping a copy down your very obvious chimney. Posted Image

#57 samson

samson

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 84 posts
  • LocationMichigan USA

Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

I voted no to all because here  just like in el high prices here forced me to be an all rounder and i dont pk anyway. I like fighting monsters. the most important reason not to do this change is that if we did change the first thing that would have to happen is a complete wipe of all skills and pic points and i dont want to see that. I have too much time invested here already.

#58 Nova

Nova

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 315 posts

Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:48 PM

View Postsamson, on 26 October 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

the most important reason not to do this change is that if we did change the first thing that would have to happen is a complete wipe of all skills and pic points and i dont want to see that. I have too much time invested here already.

crap thinking.  if we use that logic to make decisions then nothing will ever change.

#59 Wizzy

Wizzy

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 199 posts

Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:53 PM

View Postthemuntdregger, on 23 October 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

View PostGrendous, on 22 October 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

The excuse it forces unique char builds is total bs. With the limited amount of pps each char should still be unique even if nexus didn't use pps at all. Some of the people posting comments aren't playing game or so I've been told. Nexus as quests rewards is the better solution from my stand point.

I think you miss the point so damn far, even a dog sled pulled by a crack team of husky's would be pretty hard pressed to find you. Still, lets see if we can't haul the frozen remains of your 'logic' (not to mention the decaying corpse of your communication skills) back to the land of polite, reasonable and constructive discussion.

Ok, so lets start with a short 101 in mmorpg economics (courtesy of that nice Mr Castronova et al). An economy can be defined as the trading of resources between those that have them, and those who don't.  Hence, it's fair to say that trade will not arise unless there is some inequity of resource. Irl, you just might have noticed that we have this massive advantage of environmental, geographical and political factors all conspiring so as trade is an unavoidable and continuing fact of life. Now, brace yourself as I know this will come as huge shock, but in the virtual world of the mmorpg economy, we are not nearly so lucky. Indeed, a whole lot of meticulous and detailed planning must go into ensuring that you rarely, if ever, get everything you want and, even when you do, you don't get to keep it for very long. Why ??? Because, because your fun ultimately depends on challenge, and challenge is all about making life difficult for you (kind of like i'm doing to you now - no, please don't thank me). :P

Now, let return to the thorny issue of nexus and it's specific purpose in making your life difficult. Nexus  acts to create inequity, the wonderful irony being that, the better you want to be at something in-game, the more it forces you to depend on others to achieve that. However, unlike say attributes or experience, which create higher level inequities, nexus acts to create inequities at the lower level. Why is this necessary ? Well, not only do these low level items form a significant part of what's traded in the in-game economy, they are also the stepping stones by which those of lower experience, and attributes progress on to higher level items. Indeed, the mere fact that you create a significant market in lower level items is the fundamental mechanism that enables new players to progress, and what gives existing players the ability to fulfil to reach their full potential (either in killing and breaking, or alternatively, in making and trading).

Now, imagine the situation where you remove nexus and every tom dick and pk-weeny is able to mix his own underpants. What's going to happen is that you're going to ruin all that carefully contrived inequity, the consequence of which is going to be less demand for the game's basic items, huge oversupply and prices falling below the cost of the ings.  Now I could explain the inevitable consequences of that but, tbh, Mr Castronova et al does it so much better than I ever could. Might I suggest you add his worthy tome, 'Virtual Worlds',  as part of your essential bedtime reading, or at least ask Santa if he could see his way clear to dropping a copy down your very obvious chimney. Posted Image

Holy Hell!

Pin this post (3rd time I am in agreement with this guy) Wonders never cease........... But yes, everyone making "suggestions" in game should read this over and over until they understand it.

#60 Aislinn

Aislinn

    Member

  • Full Member
  • PipPip
  • 337 posts

Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:56 PM

It could be pinned to my shirt and I would never agree.  Again, nothing to do with understanding it.  Obviously we want different things from a game.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users