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Our Cold War. Mixers VS. Fighters. - NOT OFFICIAL


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Poll: Unofficial Poll Mix vs Combat (88 member(s) have cast votes)

Should being able to craft the highest end items have some negative impact on combat strength and should being tweaked for maximum combat strength mean you cannot craft high end items?

  1. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  2. I don't know (4 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

  3. NO (68 votes [77.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.27%

Should the degree of negative impact on combat strength increase with the amount of mixing skills you are able to perform at their maximum?

  1. No (15 votes [17.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.05%

  2. Yes (16 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  3. I voted No on the first question (54 votes [61.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 61.36%

  4. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

As a broad and general question; How much decrease to combat strength should be felt for having mixing ability?

  1. Only a little (9 votes [10.23%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.23%

  2. A moderate amount (7 votes [7.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.95%

  3. Quite a lot (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

  4. I voted No to the first question (66 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  5. I don't know (3 votes [3.41%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.41%

Vote

#81 St_ArcaNe

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:18 AM

lets say you study 4-5 years to be an engineer, and someone else trains muay thai for  4-5 years, who do you think is going to win in a fight?

That's not even the point, I don't know why 'mixers' always say everything is about mixing vs fighting, this is mixing vs mixing as well, you can't train to be a doctor/lawyer/rockstar/quantum physicist/fashion designer all in one lifetime, or even hold on to the skills of each profession flawlessly as you learn the others. EL has no lifespan, the time it takes to get good at something is 100-1000x faster than RL time, thus you can become adept at all skills, and use them all at the same time with no diminishing returns, for ever and ever.

Look at all the items in your house? Do you know 1 person who could build your house and make everything inside it, and make everything needed, all down the chain, of the items you use on a daily basis?

If you say yes to that you either have a really shitty house or you are lying.

#82 themuntdregger

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:02 AM

+1 St_Arc. Yes I agree entirely with your 'mixer vs mixer' point.

If each char was subject to a finite in-game lifetime, then we could rely simply on exp levelling to determine whether they were able to mix high end items (what Aislinn previously referred to as the 'time factor').

Alas, in a game where chars are effectively immortal, then relying simply on the time factor favours a narrow group of players who are either early adopters of the game, or have the benefit of being able to spend a lot of time online. The effect is then what we see in Eternal Lands, that same narrow group of players get so far ahead of others that it's impossible for anyone to compete with them.

I don't think its possible to underestimate the negative effect that that situation has on the game as a whole. Players stop engaging in combat because it's stacked against them and, even with an attributes cap, the economic advantage enjoyed by uber players makes it much less of an issue to lose gear in combat. Even in the economy, once a players wealth gets past a certain point, they can then effectively use it to embargo others and cause rampant mudflation. Hence, the purpose of imposing some negative consequence on increasing any single skill or ability ahead of others is to attempt to bring some balance and  maintain playability for both new players and old.  My concern is that, even with the cap and deduction of perks and nexus from available attribute allocation, clearly that wasn't sufficient to bring balance to EL.

I'm not criticising the desire of some players (a majority by the looks of this poll) to be able to mix and fight to equal ability, however, maybe we should look seriously at implementing fixed char lifetimes in an effort to both meet their particular aspiration and keep the game playable for the rest of us, as I don't see how it will be possible to have both without such a measure.

#83 Dilly

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

View PostSt_ArcaNe, on 01 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

lets say you study 4-5 years to be an engineer, and someone else trains muay thai for  4-5 years, who do you think is going to win in a fight?

That's not even the point, I don't know why 'mixers' always say everything is about mixing vs fighting, this is mixing vs mixing as well, you can't train to be a doctor/lawyer/rockstar/quantum physicist/fashion designer all in one lifetime, or even hold on to the skills of each profession flawlessly as you learn the others. EL has no lifespan, the time it takes to get good at something is 100-1000x faster than RL time, thus you can become adept at all skills, and use them all at the same time with no diminishing returns, for ever and ever.

Look at all the items in your house? Do you know 1 person who could build your house and make everything inside it, and make everything needed, all down the chain, of the items you use on a daily basis?

If you say yes to that you either have a really shitty house or you are lying.

I don´t know such a person, but I also don´t go out for a walk in the desert to then be surrounded by ogres, cyclops, or armed orcs. So I'm not so sure the answer to ´how realistic is it´ is even relevant.


Unless OL will know specific classes (which I am not opposed to), I still don´t think there should be an additional penalty
I think that the diminishing return you talk about is actually paid upfront, by a serious amount of time invested. The way things are right now, A-D leveling is already a lot easier, or at least a lot less time consuming than leveling any other skill (assuming you harvest all your resources for mixing yourself, of course). Not only does a-d training give you exp in 2 skills at once, it also gives you your OA exp at double speed. I wouldn´t mind getting rid of skillschools or changing them so that you can only get 2x exp there until you reach a certain skill level, if that takes away the often heard argument that ´there are no schools for attack and defense´

Someone who choses to level 3 or 4 of the mixing skills will have less time to spend on spawn, so it will already take them longer to get to a certain a-d level. Personally I think it´s entirely unfair to penalise that even more. The current situation with nexus where at worst, someone with the same OA and a-d level but only 7 pps invested in nexus, will be totally overpowering the person with 28 pps invested in nexus is just too unfair. They´ve obviously leveled their combat skills so they should never have such a huge disadvantage. I´m not against making choices for the further development of one´s character, but I am against discouraging people to broaden their ingame horizon.


Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this post was not in any way meant to belittle or ridicule anyone, nor their opinions, just voicing mine.

#84 St_ArcaNe

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 11:01 AM

I know it's a game dilly and that realism doesn't mean much, and I don't want to discourage people from doing different stuff, especially not from fighting. I want everyone to be happy, but eventually u will have no lifers/botters who can do/make everything.

It's the majority vote though so I'll not say anything else on the matter. I'll see how things turn out, maybe my concerns are unfounded.

#85 themuntdregger

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:55 PM

View PostDilly, on 01 November 2012 - 08:51 AM, said:

View PostSt_ArcaNe, on 01 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

lets say you study 4-5 years to be an engineer, and someone else trains muay thai for  4-5 years, who do you think is going to win in a fight?

That's not even the point, I don't know why 'mixers' always say everything is about mixing vs fighting, this is mixing vs mixing as well, you can't train to be a doctor/lawyer/rockstar/quantum physicist/fashion designer all in one lifetime, or even hold on to the skills of each profession flawlessly as you learn the others. EL has no lifespan, the time it takes to get good at something is 100-1000x faster than RL time, thus you can become adept at all skills, and use them all at the same time with no diminishing returns, for ever and ever.

Look at all the items in your house? Do you know 1 person who could build your house and make everything inside it, and make everything needed, all down the chain, of the items you use on a daily basis?

If you say yes to that you either have a really shitty house or you are lying.

I don´t know such a person, but I also don´t go out for a walk in the desert to then be surrounded by ogres, cyclops, or armed orcs. So I'm not so sure the answer to ´how realistic is it´ is even relevant.


Unless OL will know specific classes (which I am not opposed to), I still don´t think there should be an additional penalty
I think that the diminishing return you talk about is actually paid upfront, by a serious amount of time invested. The way things are right now, A-D leveling is already a lot easier, or at least a lot less time consuming than leveling any other skill (assuming you harvest all your resources for mixing yourself, of course). Not only does a-d training give you exp in 2 skills at once, it also gives you your OA exp at double speed. I wouldn´t mind getting rid of skillschools or changing them so that you can only get 2x exp there until you reach a certain skill level, if that takes away the often heard argument that ´there are no schools for attack and defense´

Someone who choses to level 3 or 4 of the mixing skills will have less time to spend on spawn, so it will already take them longer to get to a certain a-d level. Personally I think it´s entirely unfair to penalise that even more. The current situation with nexus where at worst, someone with the same OA and a-d level but only 7 pps invested in nexus, will be totally overpowering the person with 28 pps invested in nexus is just too unfair. They´ve obviously leveled their combat skills so they should never have such a huge disadvantage. I´m not against making choices for the further development of one´s character, but I am against discouraging people to broaden their ingame horizon.


Before anyone jumps to any conclusions, this post was not in any way meant to belittle or ridicule anyone, nor their opinions, just voicing mine.
I'd suggest 'realism' is very relevant to a mmorpg, otherwise we'd all be playing mmo suduko or some other abstract online logic puzzle. However, it's especially important where a game seeks to emulate something like an economy, which only exist when the key conditions and rules are engineered to precisely reflect those of the real world.

To argue that realism in a mmorpg is not relevant because a certain in-game creature doesn't exist in the real world is like suggesting that America is somehow less real than the UK simply because they have raccoons and we don't.  Now i've never seen a raccoon, but i'd suggest they do pretty much the same thing as foxes do over here. Hence, whilst i've also never seen ogre's, cyclops and armed orcs (although i'm sure they're also very abundant in America), i'm pretty sure they occupy the same basic evolutionary niche as many of those equally gnarly irl inconveniences that get reported on the news every other day.

As far as 'time' being a fair determinant of in-game abilities, as per my previous post, that only holds good where the time available to everyone who plays is comparable. However, in a game where chars don't die, and where there are vast disparities in the time the an individual players can be online, the effect is to reduce what's meant to be a contest of skill and knowledge, to one which is simply about who can spend the longest time in-game.

I'd find it easier to accept that this wasn't the case if someone was to explain precisely why my own and others fears are entirely unfounded.

#86 Blackbeard

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 07:19 PM

I think realism is something that should not be taken into any serious consideration in a mmorpg.
I would want specialism for completely different reasons. Without builds, without specialisation, without choices relevant to how your char turns out, without soft caps, the thing which limits your chars strengths is the time you invest. Sure, being more intelligent may mean you have to waste less time, but it means that just how much you no-life is what determines your place in the games ladder. Fuck that. I want strategy, choosing what I'll specialise in, who i'll cooperate with, what they'll be specialised in. I don't what some allrounder who's devoted more time than I possibly could being better than me at everything. If you want to be the best at everything and just grind/macro your way to maxing everything, go play something like oblivion or skyrim (lolol), it doesn't have a place in a mmo environment.

#87 bog

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:18 AM

Indeed , while it is nice to have the chance to sample every art within the skill set ........... I would say the soft reset option is quite a good one for now.

#88 themuntdregger

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

Yup - soft reset certainly gets my vote as the fairest and most practical solution. Plus it's an excelent potential gold sink.

View PostBlackbeard, on 01 November 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

I think realism is something that should not be taken into any serious consideration in a mmorpg.
I would want specialism for completely different reasons. Without builds, without specialisation, without choices relevant to how your char turns out, without soft caps, the thing which limits your chars strengths is the time you invest. Sure, being more intelligent may mean you have to waste less time, but it means that just how much you no-life is what determines your place in the games ladder. Fuck that. I want strategy, choosing what I'll specialise in, who i'll cooperate with, what they'll be specialised in. I don't what some allrounder who's devoted more time than I possibly could being better than me at everything. If you want to be the best at everything and just grind/macro your way to maxing everything, go play something like oblivion or skyrim (lolol), it doesn't have a place in a mmo environment.

Agree with everything you say which seems both logical and sensible.

However, I think you might misunderstand what I meant by realism. I'm not on about cosmetics, but ensuring that the conditions affecting gameplay are sufficiently complex and subtle to make the game more a contest of skill and strategy than grind and luck.

#89 Blackbeard

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:19 AM

Soft reset already exists as a shop item btw

#90 Legolis

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 09:36 PM

View PostBat17, on 07 October 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Those naked harvesters were probably only in there because they were doing a daily!
I don't think that any ings should only be available on pk maps.
I am a harvester mixer, I pve like a hunter gatherer, kill what I need for my skill + some leveling up to let me enter locations that have raw mats safely.
So to me things like GWIS and Lenny just detract from the game, I we are going to have random events in the game that are really just to the disadvantage of non fighters then we should have matching random events that hit fighters, how about lightning strikes in the game, the more meatal carried the more likely to be hit and killed?  :-)

Bat17
I love it, lightning strikes or maybe wall collapses if you are fighting indoors.  I voted no because the end result is fighters have to use PP to get nexuses needed for mixing so get a negative over pure fighters and pure fighters wont waste the nexus on needed PP to mix.




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