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#1 samson

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:54 PM

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''.

#2 CoduX

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:05 AM

Learner is doing the best he can. it's a bit hard when it's a one-man job.

#3 Tuffy

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:10 AM

View PostCoduX, on 04 June 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Learner is doing the best he can. it's a bit hard when it's a one-man job.

agree with that.

also would like to see stuff that el doesnt have but keep it pretty much old skool, which i think can bring more peeps to the game once they try it out.

#4 Veenlijk

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:29 PM

By having fun stuff to do ingame. Right now it is just mindless clicking/grinding. (If nothing has changed the last couple of months)

#5 Legolis

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:50 PM

Much has changed and continues to evolve.  I do not want to see the old perks just thrown in, that was a downfall of EL along with dailies.  If you want what EL has go there!  if you want to grow and contribute and evolve stay here.  I have seen this game evolve in my several months here.  Perhaps what we need is a new invasion master to have more invasions to liven it up.  I hear good ideas from PKers and non PKers and alot of changes do not benefit Pkers at all or no more than all others.  i wish I had a programming background to help with this game development but sadly I am only a hardware guy.  To attract new players we need more word of mouth advertising and maybe paid advertising so feel free to pay for ads on the web.

#6 butler

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 03:46 PM

sorry for the necro, but i have a list for samson, brought from EL, since he might find it interesting as i outlined why newbies quit there. Obviously some factors are now solved and new factors have been made, so i have editted it to incase those too.
Please be aware this is a very big text wall, Around 4000 words. My apologies, but it saves me posting it over several thread on several posts.
Please note that plain text is the problem, Italics are my answer for EL, and Bold is my analysis for OL.

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From the newbies (those i met on 4060 channel and on IP) i have a few reasons why people quit:
People who quit in first hour to day:
  • not knowing controls or not being properly engaged with other players or action in the opening minutes. The initial experience is "boring". So why not make an opening that engaging, like RuneScape. Still an issue, but I'm thinking up more original engaging ways, that might take advantage of maybe designing a new IP around a tutorial rather than awkwardly fitting one to IP.
  • At the start, their only experience of community is channel 1, not like when most of us started, where people were at beam.Why not give benifits to those who spend some time at beam, helping, advising, chatting and healing newbies? We need a better @@1 experience, we discussed it in 2 threads so far as well. Maybe add in a feature from another game giving newbies a special item, that can be sold, and players BID for it, and successful bid winners have a chance of gaining a PP, but otherwise is just a useless item. It works in the other game, but social attitudes are different.
And those from 4060:
  • Scams/Lures/etc. Last year i saw a whole guild/family quit due to this and many more. Why not up the non scam limit to level 60, due to haidirs etc, newbies level too quickly for the 20 cap to be at all effective. Or why not just ban scamming altogether, and go the way of all other successful MMOs. Not such an issue in OL atm, but will grow with playerbase, so is one to watch.
  • Lack of content for lower levels. We have invance at level 40, which is continually less frequent, and before that, nothing to engage the lower levels interest. Why not add a lower level Exclusive, challenge, which draws on several different players of under 40/50/60 level cap. Even more of an issue, but i have confidence Learner will be more sympathetic to lower levels when adding events.
  • Over Powered Invasions for our caps. Admittedly, all part radus NC invasion for under 40s was well done. But apart from the first Selain Invasion and Maxines Invasions, i haven't really seen a well balanced Invasion that rich people or special builds can complete in the <60 range. Why not ask what ranges are capable of? Maxine did that and it was one of the best invasions are caps got? Making alts in range is all well and good, but you have knowledge and skill which the real newbies don't. Yay (mostly) balanced here, with only varying opinions on a few bosses or mob mixes. Radu was a bastard to low level in invasions in EL. Most of the low invasion were, only maxine consistently did them well for us...
  • A Feeling that the game is based around the top caps and character buyers. I have met a few people who wonder why lower levels dont seem to be considered as important as top cappers. And i know this will annoy people, but its the truth. There are some Mods who try very hard to keep things balanced, and to encourage newbies. Why not give newbies as varied and entertaining selection of pass times as high levels? Something that i feel L will be mor sympathetic to when doing point #2
  • Being degraded by high levels. If we don't the tactics for tanking, ranging or any such tactics and try to help people, we get ridiculed for it, and then we see the community in a bad light. TREAT NEWBIES NICELY! Some do, but more need to allow for innocent lack of knowledge. Playerbase should take it upon themselves, something SamSon considers, as do a few others. Sadly nobody actually read this properly or saw it as anything but a personal insult in EL, but it is an important thing that higher level players should at least be sympathetic to.
  • PK. We're not allowed to enter PK effectively, unless we get to know the high levels or go do it in a guildmap. Too many people have the opinion newbies should stay out of PK, and anybody who wants to try PK is screwed over, and probably not going to do it when they hit a high level. Why not implement a way where newbs cant be attacked by people 2x time their level. Its ridiculous, and screws you who complain about having 'No PK'. You killed it. Some interesting ideas in Shockers DPA thread could actually solve this too.
  • Rules. They dont agree with some rules, primarily multi play, and i have no idea of a fix Posted Image Well we got rid of most rules, part multiplaying. I think we need to put in hard set rules to deter or to automatically stop most abuses here. Also, i think we should change ingame rules to OLs and not ELs (i mean really) and to give newbies a better idea as to why the rules are in place (i.e. why it benifits them and the community to abide to them) this can atleast be done in part by the community.
  • Earning GC. At low levels its an endless slog of harvestin and/or mixing for them to earn the gc to buy half decent kit. How will that attract new players? Make and easy way for newbies to initially make GC, but make it inadequate for higher levels. GC is easier here than EL, but we need to create a bigger incentive to "buy noob".
  • Adult Language. We have alot of people using tonnes of swears, casual racism, sexism, homophobia and religious insults. You kill off the entire attraction for parents sharing the game with their children, and people offended by the language. Ban those who do any racism, etc. and establish a "curse" channel for being the only area for cursing.Playerbase should moderate people, as it should with point #5. Make the rule regarding it more specific and punish those that do make what should be the friendly first encounter to the community in @@1 into an unattractive mess of racism, homaphobia and antisemitism that is disgustingly used commonly on channel.
  • Feeling that the admins only really concerned in keeping high levels. Yeah, this tends to come in when there is no action after a high level scammed a newbie for something thats alot for the newbie, but nothing to the scammer. Also happens with the other reasons. If you fix most of the other issues outlined, then this will disolve. Sorry if it hurts the mods feeling, since it isnt actually your fault, its just what they tend to complain about when no action is taken. Well, i feel that community action mostly makes this fairer and less of a point, but we do need to set some solid points as to how we deal with things to destroy most of the founded problems lying there.
  • Game feel unbalanced. good weapons are cheaper than bad weapons, NPC prices dont stay in line with ings prices.... It generally gives some people the feeling of a half baked cake, especially alongside quite alot of other MMOs. Why not balance the game, or at least the really obvious stuff. Yay, L is addressing this (albeit not at the speed alot of people want, but considering chance of this happening in EL is minute, well, better than nothing) and the community is coming up with far better ways of addressing problems and new systems that can handle balancing much better, but not ruin the core we obviously like.
These are all issues ive seen people quit for. quite alot are easily ammedable, either by players or by developers. I know some of you will say people haven't quit on these reasons, but you'll be wrong. Easily scamming is the biggest reason for people quitting, and thats tied with the lack of anything interesting to do as a newbie.

I also recognise that their are people in the community who go out of the way to help those, and do some of the fixes i outlined, . and i am happy with those who help make the area more newbie friendly. But the part of the community that is less kind generally thrashes most of their efforts. The attitude of "well thats a lesson that you learned, your experience will make you wiser in the future" doesnt help them get over it.

Just hold us newbs in the same regards you would hold the high levels.

Zathras - cutting of high levels and low levels doesnt always work. Basically, you should just encourage them, and tell them not to worry about high level stuff untill they're high levels. Its often funner having the low levels stuff, and gradually working up through the grades. I actually slightly regret getting RD armour at such a low level...their isnt anything really to aim for anymore. I was much happier when i had iron plate, mirror cape, CoL, MoL and SoP. That was my favourite stuff, and was the most entertaining way i played in my entire EL experience.

this was radus reply (normal text is just his reply, again bold is my answer, but it differs from what i gave on EL forums, since i was very pissed of at him at the time, and my arguments werent really constructive):

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Scams/Lures/etc. Last year i saw a whole guild/family quit due to this and many more. Why not up the non scam limit to level 60, due to haidirs etc, newbies level too quickly for the 20 cap to be at all effective. Or why not just ban scamming altogether, and go the way of all other successful MMOs.


I am not sure what other MMOs do, but banning scamming is totally retarded. We are not kindergarten teachers.
You want to keep a happy playerbase? Remove abuses, and make sure that people screwing the low level, and thus getting rid of players are deterred or punished. They destroy the foundations of your playerbase, and dont encourage your pocket, by not letting players get to the point where they are likely to invest in your game with there wallets. This is particularly worrying in EL, as theres nothing to counteract old players quitting and not spending on his shop any longer. Wholly, this shows me how little he regards the importance of the newbies, which is a major problem developing in EL, and is evident in the under 40s being depopulated, followed by a nonexistent 4060 invance which is deprived of more than 3 main characters, and the 6080 dying and 80100 becoming smaller that i saw when i left last Easter. This may sound sour, but is my view, and in light of what i saw in my experience of the lower levels, is valid. Some seem to forget that ground zero looks very different from above rather than being down there, seeing it collapse around you.
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Lack of content for lower levels. We have invance at level 40, which is continually less frequent, and before that, nothing to engage the lower levels interest. Why not add a lower level Exclusive, challenge, which draws on several different players of under 40/50/60 level cap.


So if people at those levels don't even take advantage of the invance, why do more things for them? So I waste my time for something that will be unused? Besides, there are tons of quests that can be done at those levels. And the daily quests take the level into account.
Wrong, wrong, wrong attitude. People dont go to the invance due to fluff and feros, which only people with defensive build or high level armours can competently take out. This in turn means you always have a decent percentage of alts and mains who are a/d sitting, which, when its a high percentage of them, ruins the fun for both parties by overeffeciency. On the other hand, only newbs results in a disaserous inefficiency. Why add other events? so there is a varietry, like the top levels, but in a perfect circumstance, a broader one to encompass and engage the entirity of the newbies, and keep them playing. Short sightedness here is another key reason of newbie depopulation.
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Over Powered Invasions for our caps. Admittedly, all part radus NC invasion for under 40s was well done. But apart from the first Selain Invasion and Maxines Invasions, i haven't really seen a well balanced Invasion that rich people or special builds can complete in the <60 range. Why not ask what ranges are capable of? Maxine did that and it was one of the best invasions are caps got? Making alts in range is all well and good, but you have knowledge and skill which the real newbies don't.


Did they ever ask for an invasion, and had a team, and I didn't do it?
They did, but last one i saw by you had OP creatures for the best equipped, and had half those active newbies quit. He misses the entire point, the fact that we have/had teams of 8-16 people, mostly before the great newbie decline (Autumn 2012-Summer 2013), didnt stop us being wholly deterred by invasions that needed to be cleared by a specialist with high level armours with and extended cap. Short sightedness, once again.
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A Feeling that the game is based around the top caps and character buyers. I have met a few people who wonder why lower levels dont seem to be considered as important as top cappers. And i know this will annoy people, but its the truth. There are some Mods who try very hard to keep things balanced, and to encourage newbies. Why not give newbies as varied and entertaining selection of pass times as high levels?


I don't get it. What entertainment do pros have access to that newbies don't? The only thing I can think of is instances, which most likely newbies won't do anyway (same a with them not doing invances).
Lets see, invance/instances are unfairly balanced at low levels, and need alot of work which he fails to address. They are OP, and need balancing, which wasnt going to happen. Other entertainment high levels had was nenorocit (newbie with gc for mines/caltrops? nope.), leonard (he eats people, you know), Badaran (bad wolf), Joker (just blind luck to reach it before Maxine/Burn/etc.). Most suggestions on EL forums to do with this wholly miss the mark imo. We need several different activities available from level 0, that can expand slightly going up till top cap, ie starting with 5 varied activies at level 0, up to 12 at level 50 to 25 at level 100. Just give us capped events, that are universally called, and encourage social cooperation and competition amongst all caps. It works for other games, and is a self explanatory and effective system.
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Being degraded by high levels. If we don't the tactics for tanking, ranging or any such tactics and try to help people, we get ridiculed for it, and then we see the community in a bad light. TREAT NEWBIES NICELY! Some do, but more need to allow for innocent lack of knowledge.


When the fuck would a pro need a newbie to tank something?
Do you even read. We have alts. Alts tend to be pros. Pros working with newbs via there alts can be very hostile. Also, newbs trying to suppourt pros in invasions in EL were treated with radus mentality, and were put of by the communities ugly side. Not as big a problem here, but still something to think on.
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PK. We're not allowed to enter PK effectively, unless we get to know the high levels or go do it in a guildmap. Too many people have the opinion newbies should stay out of PK, and anybody who wants to try PK is screwed over, and probably not going to do it when they hit a high level. Why not implement a way where newbs cant be attacked by people 2x time their level. Its ridiculous, and screws you who complain about having 'No PK'. You killed it.


There are plenty of capped, non drop arenas, so I don't understand your concern..
Just...no. Capped arenas dont take into consideration armours, which meant we were massacred in arenas too. Ethereal/matter points of pr0s were higher, as was carry, they still kill us easily. You have a facade system, that look fine from the outside, but as soon as you walk into it, it shows how fundamentally shallow the concept is. Again, have a look at Shockers DPA thread for an idea.
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Earning GC. At low levels its an endless slog of harvestin and/or mixing for them to earn the gc to buy half decent kit. How will that attract new players? Make and easy way for newbies to initially make GC, but make it inadequate for higher levels.


Daily quests give a decent amount of gc even at newbie levels. Newbies nowadays have it much better than before.
Better, but comparitively worse. They get exp and gold, yes, does it go as far as before?...no. Again, its a facade system for self assurance, but is mostly resolved here by having gc comparitively more valuable in relation to high level items, with only mirror/BP/Setp being serious anomalies. If you look at full armour sets for top levels to gc earnable in an hour, we have it at a more optimum position, with several k of gc earnable a session, that can more quickly purchase us a full set of the best armour. The lack of rostos compounds this. In EL, the rate of gc was the same but lacked far less value in relation to the top stuff, was far less. This is the Actual value vs the theoretical value of currency. This is more something to consider when implementing new items.
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Adult Language. We have alot of people using tonnes of swears, casual racism, sexism, homophobia and religious insults. You kill off the entire attraction for parents sharing the game with their children, and people offended by the language. Ban those who do any racism, etc. and establish a "curse" channel for being the only area for cursing.


Well, it sucks to be them. EL was never designed for children. Teenagers and older should be familiar with the curses, and there is a word filter that can be activated. As for casual racism, there are rules against it, and I dare you to show me constant occurrences of that. As for sexism, I have no idea what you are talking about, I don't remember ever seeing it.
Wrong attitude. Considering you have a large percentage of children playing, you have to make allowances for the fact. The fact that in EL this moderation was irregular at best was a horrible issue. This is still relevant in EL and has been the subject of several posts/threads. As to radus opinion on it, i remember a conversation on @@6 where he was talking about "good weed" vs "bad weed", buying an AK47 illegally and murder. Role model.
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Feeling that the admins only really concerned in keeping high levels. Yeah, this tends to come in when there is no action after a high level scammed a newbie for something thats alot for the newbie, but nothing to the scammer. Also happens with the other reasons. If you fix most of the other issues outlined, then this will disolve. Sorry if it hurts the mods feeling, since it isnt actually your fault, its just what they tend to complain about when no action is taken.


Are you on crack? If there are no rules for scamming, what would you expect the mods to do?
Read. Read. Re-Read. Consider. Read again. Think. Post.
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Also EL should advertise more. Why not buy ad space in linux mags? Try and slip ads into Niche mags that might have a reader base that would fit in with the player base? So far i haven't really see any ads for EL anywhere. Can't expect an awful lot to come across us accidently, you need to actively pursue players.


Why don't you put your money where your mouth is, buy more stuff from the store so that we can advertise more? And I am glad that you know how and where we advertise, and assume that I am an incompetent idiot who doesn't "actively pursue players".
Right, i will not pay for advertisement unless i am shown EXPLICITLY that it will go to advertisement, and in which way. The attitude to demand money of players to pay for the latest plot of the dev is not something i miss.

In places i do sound bitchy, but thats simply because i was in a heated row with radu at the time to do with the direction the game was going, culminating with this post, several ban threats for things i said in game & on forums. Please try and read the points for the merit of the ideas and the reasonings behind it.

I posted this here as it fits best into this newbie recruitment, and i still consider it to be the best collection of my thoughts and experiences of how to make the game gain and retain new players. I also thought that SamSon would appreciate my shared feelings on keeping new players, and that this might help us both think of better/other ways to address this problem. I also think that this post, specifically in the bits that refer to things the playerbase can do might help to show the feelings of a newbie to the reactionary ideas and actions of the high levels. Most of this was written when i was still playing EL actively in the low levels, and the failure to act on these measures drove me away like so many other newbies.

I also acknowledge that this post is ridiculously long (verging on 4000 words), and the most people wont even read half of it, but i do hope people find what ever titbits they read in this useful.

http://www.eternal-l...ic=58430&page=1 For the full topic, but i saw it mostly involved high levels and no other low level opinions.

Note to Learner: I know this refers quite alot to EL, but i hope it remains ontopic enough to warrant keeping it here.
Note to Rabbitman: I refer alot to high level players/alts aggression to new players, and i know you are one of the only people to move here that i recon was always forgiving for their lack of knowledge, especially in Instances. 1
Note to Other Players: Please try and Forgive my slightly complaining tone. Also, 1Please try and take this not personally, as i dont know many of you from EL, but i am only apologising to him as i knew him in EL and recognised his effort. I would extend the same courtesy to you if i knew you in EL or had seen your efforts, but i missed quite alot of activity operating outside @@6, @@4060 & @@6080.

#7 Mitch3

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 04:45 PM

Good shit butler. I think learner should implement all your ideas :D

#8 themuntdregger

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 06:32 PM

Liked Butlers post and enjoyed reading it. Yup, hope Learner takes the ideas into account and, am sure he will.

Not much to add, except that I avoided invasions in EL and, never considered going on an invance. That had less to do with not wanting to, and more the politics, arbitrary rules and attitude of certain mods. The cool thing about OL (at least imho) is that i'm now able to participate in invasions, at the level that suits me, without hassle or uncertainty.

The stuff about being nice to nubs is certainly well conceived and something that the community should focus on (i'm sure most already do). Imho, the best thing to encourage nubs and make them stay is involving them in guilds asap, at least that was experience when running a guild in EL.

#9 Fire

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 12:58 AM

I would propose reworking tutorial

#10 butler

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 04:47 AM

View Postthemuntdregger, on 13 February 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

Liked Butlers post and enjoyed reading it. Yup, hope Learner takes the ideas into account and, am sure he will.
I posted it here since i feel learner will be more open to such points, and i also have confidence he will work on them.

Quote

Not much to add, except that I avoided invasions in EL and, never considered going on an invance. That had less to do with not wanting to, and more the politics, arbitrary rules and attitude of certain mods. The cool thing about OL (at least imho) is that i'm now able to participate in invasions, at the level that suits me, without hassle or uncertainty.

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Ranges where hit and miss in EL, but here, if Learner continues going in the same direction, i feel we shouldnt have that many problems, at least not with a huge gap till they're rectified.
The stuff about being nice to nubs is certainly well conceived and something that the community should focus on (i'm sure most already do). Imho, the best thing to encourage nubs and make them stay is involving them in guilds asap, at least that was experience when running a guild in EL.
@@1 is the main community portal that newbies will use outside guilds, an it would be benificial to keep it constructive and friendly :P Some people wont want to join guilds, and they should be allowed to enjoy a friendly community while doing so.

View PostFire, on 14 February 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:

I would propose reworking tutorial
I agree, and i outlined one concept in that wall of text above. I think designing a map around a tutorial, a "new player school" or dungeon could make an involving and interesting tutorial.

#11 Fire

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 05:03 AM

From my sides projecting new starting map would be a clean pleasure,but as far as I know Learner has one already.TODO list contains reputing it but not soon I guess.

#12 butler

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 06:16 AM

View PostFire, on 14 February 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

From my sides projecting new starting map would be a clean pleasure,but as far as I know Learner has one already.TODO list contains reputing it but not soon I guess.
I didnt quite understand. Are you saying L is holding back an IP replacement, or has a reworked tutorial planned?
either way i think it would be better to make a split map with one half as a newbie academy, accessible to only those under a certain level and designated Newbie Helpers (a thread coming to you soon by butler, when i have the time to formulate my reasoning better), and half to do the current uses of IP as a beam hub with extended activities for newbies. But im not sure how implementing this into a map would be, so i would like to discuss it with you fire (since your a good map builder). Maybe we should make "Redoing IP" thread, or something... instead of further hijacking the thread i semi hijacked from SamSon (sorry).

#13 Learner

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 06:19 AM

IP was having a new map made, that was the first one started on ... but then the mapmaker had RL issues that prevented finishing it. Plus, it's already on the list to redo how ALL quests are handled, including the Tutorial.

#14 butler

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Posted 14 February 2014 - 06:25 AM

ok was just wondering. Good to know this stuff.

I had a relook over post #6 and i missed out writing about issues unique to otherlife...which i'll need to go over it once i have enough time to form the ideas into a proper reasoned argument with possible suggestions.

So sorry, textwall is set to being enlarged.

#15 ZogZog

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 07:52 AM

I think the idea of having a dungeon that needs to be navigated after a new player creates a character is a good idea. Give them a weapon strait away and possibly even some armour.

A possible scenario where the new player needs to enter a small room that needs to be cleared of rats/rabbits (maybe even weaken the creatures so it cannot be failed).

It thrusts the player into immediate action where they get to learn game skills and leaves them with armour / weapon / gold coins to get started.

#16 Learner

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:03 AM

View PostZogZog, on 20 February 2014 - 07:52 AM, said:

I think the idea of having a dungeon that needs to be navigated after a new player creates a character is a good idea. Give them a weapon strait away and possibly even some armour.

A possible scenario where the new player needs to enter a small room that needs to be cleared of rats/rabbits (maybe even weaken the creatures so it cannot be failed).

It thrusts the player into immediate action where they get to learn game skills and leaves them with armour / weapon / gold coins to get started.
There used to be a newbie island with a quest to do that introduced you how to play, but in EL they found that mobs had to spend time there explaining to people what to do, so the tutorial on IP was created.

#17 Nightmare

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 09:58 AM

Also old style dpa40 can make quick, nice, fun pk for "newer" people.  Even when they don't fight, is fun to watch and safe to watch.

#18 butler

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:00 AM

We have those popups used to tell people when they are finishing bits of newbie tut...personally i think the best way to do it is with ZogZogs idea, using the popups to explain ( a benevolent spectrum for RP purposes ), with them being lead through a varietry of dungeons, introducing them to a/d, magic, sum, harv, ran, alc, man, pot even, and giving a more open "end" section to the dungeon for them to get a small boost in w/e they found the most fun in the IP Special Dungeon.

With something like this developed, it opens opurtunities for a more intriguing instance that could be pushed away from L Invance idea (which i Adore), as well as my mixers instance idea...

but yes, i think it needs a good implementation and then it could be excellent for absorbing new players.

EDIT: NMs post :P

Attracting and keeping newbies on the first instance is good. I think the 40s arenas is a good way to keep them when they come to leave noobdom, at level 35-40. however, whats to stop 40s alts killing of 20s real newbs (common occurence on EL)? drop arena... pr0s just use another char to do same old bs... might end up with them just going off to 60s arena...

just an after thought

#19 Learner

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:08 AM

People read pop-ups

#20 butler

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 10:12 AM

View PostLearner, on 20 February 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

People read pop-ups
quite hard to ignore them. NPC chatter is also so long and drawn out for what it is doing... more attractive having the popups originally introducing players.




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