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Server sided counters.


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#1 PandemiC

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 06:46 AM

If you feel its in the wrong sub-forum Learner by all means move it.

Pretty simple idea.

Title says it all, how do you feel about server sided counters, rather than client sided?

If anyone can interject the downsides, i.e. server space ? (for a few kb of data per character?) or server drain?

Each time you log in, it automatically downloads the latest counters for you to view maybe, or even a manually controlled download (i.e. #pullcounters).

#2 Hades

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 07:59 AM

!support

#3 butler

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 10:41 AM

Think it would have to be automatic download at the start. I would imagine it wouldn't take much more space at the start, considering the server has to tell the client where you are, what you have in your inventory, your levels, and invasions counters, etc. already when you log on. It would certainly be nice to have the #counters & Session Counters in the Statistics window merged.

#4 themuntdregger

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 11:44 AM

I like the idea of server side counters as it allows for feedback loops that can be used to extend gameplay, ie like the awards, stats and pk system. Extending this might provide the opportunity for new and interesting aspects of gameplay without a lot of coding overhead.

I wouldn't have thought server space would have been an issue, even if recording historic data for the purposes of displaying graphs or presenting trends. However, I can see that juggling the buffering and storage of data might get rather interesting.

#5 Learner

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Posted 28 May 2014 - 12:25 PM

The most complicated part of it is how to send the data, specially the text. But we have extended the OL protocol to allow for compression and transferring a wide range of generic data, and things like counters were a factor in designing that system. The same system was used to add the x-attr data, without being compressed because the data block is too small.

#6 ohmygod

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 12:24 AM

sorry noob question, im not familiar with OL programming.

Is it possible to make a window like encyc, storage, bag, inventory etc, but for the mobs that are targeting you?

Maybe display incoming damage, highest crit etc. think maybe like ranging window but in reverse

#7 themuntdregger

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 04:49 AM

View PostLearner, on 28 May 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

The most complicated part of it is how to send the data, specially the text. But we have extended the OL protocol to allow for compression and transferring a wide range of generic data, and things like counters were a factor in designing that system. The same system was used to add the x-attr data, without being compressed because the data block is too small.

Thinking about this further, the server only needs to send the data once, when the client first logs on, so as the client counter is synchronised with the server record. The client can then maintain its own local record which avoids having to send subsequent counter updates from the server. That further helps (along with compression) to reduce the amount of data that needs to be transmitted.

Come to think of it - why don't we do that on stats rather than have to continually update them ?

Quote

sorry noob question, im not familiar with OL programming.

Is it possible to make a window like encyc, storage, bag, inventory etc, but for the mobs that are targeting you?

Maybe display incoming damage, highest crit etc. think maybe like ranging window but in reverse

The server only sends data on mobs that are within the range needed to update the mini-map/game screen. Whilst it doesn't tell the client whether any of those mobs have targetted your char, it would be fairly easy to calculate the probability. However, careful thought would need to be given as to the extent that this might unbalance overall gameplay.

#8 ohmygod

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 07:46 AM

View Postthemuntdregger, on 29 May 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

View PostLearner, on 28 May 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

The most complicated part of it is how to send the data, specially the text. But we have extended the OL protocol to allow for compression and transferring a wide range of generic data, and things like counters were a factor in designing that system. The same system was used to add the x-attr data, without being compressed because the data block is too small.

Thinking about this further, the server only needs to send the data once, when the client first logs on, so as the client counter is synchronised with the server record. The client can then maintain its own local record which avoids having to send subsequent counter updates from the server. That further helps (along with compression) to reduce the amount of data that needs to be transmitted.

Come to think of it - why don't we do that on stats rather than have to continually update them ?

Quote

sorry noob question, im not familiar with OL programming.

Is it possible to make a window like encyc, storage, bag, inventory etc, but for the mobs that are targeting you?

Maybe display incoming damage, highest crit etc. think maybe like ranging window but in reverse

The server only sends data on mobs that are within the range needed to update the mini-map/game screen. Whilst it doesn't tell the client whether any of those mobs have targetted your char, it would be fairly easy to calculate the probability. However, careful thought would need to be given as to the extent that this might unbalance overall gameplay.
I dont know about unbalancing game play, but it would be nice to know who has you targeted and who is just standing around doing thier own thing.  In combat it would be nice so as to establish a kill order or piority. or even give more information so i can decide to diss tele or something. because i got 20 mobs targeting me and i cant find the one with the tit long

You state that :

"The server only sends data on mobs that are within the range needed to update the mini-map/game screen. Whilst it doesn't tell the client whether any of those mobs have targetted your char, it would be fairly easy to calculate the probability."

So it is possible to get server to  send data about which mobs have you targeted? would be nice if down the track we could have bit more info to look at, rather than just pumping brs and HEs and staring at health bar

#9 butler

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 01:21 PM

OMG, he stated that the client isn't told whether mobs are targetting you or not, but that only the monsters within the mini-map (or otherwise the ones within the draw range of mobs, opposed to the draw distances to other characters, bags or map scenery). It would be nice if we got more in depth analysis of what's happening with our character in combat.

#10 themuntdregger

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Posted 29 May 2014 - 05:03 PM

Butler said:

It would be nice if we got more in depth analysis of what's happening with our character in combat.
Whilst  the client only knows is the type and position of the mobs within a certain range, you could potentially extrapolate a fair amount of tactical information just from that, without needing anything else from the server.

ohmygod said:

So it is possible to get server to  send data about which mobs have you targeted? would be nice if down the track we could have bit more info to look at, rather than just pumping brs and HEs and staring at health bar
Something fairly simple to create would be  the ability to configure the minimap so as it uses a different colour to highlights mobs over a certain a/d. That would be useful during invasions either for avoiding or targetting certain mobs.

#11 ohmygod

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 03:20 AM

View Postthemuntdregger, on 29 May 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Butler said:

It would be nice if we got more in depth analysis of what's happening with our character in combat.
Whilst  the client only knows is the type and position of the mobs within a certain range, you could potentially extrapolate a fair amount of tactical information just from that, without needing anything else from the server.

ohmygod said:

So it is possible to get server to  send data about which mobs have you targeted? would be nice if down the track we could have bit more info to look at, rather than just pumping brs and HEs and staring at health bar
Something fairly simple to create would be  the ability to configure the minimap so as it uses a different colour to highlights mobs over a certain a/d. That would be useful during invasions either for avoiding or targetting certain mobs.

Sorry im a newb at all this but like the game and am inteterested in whats possible development wise for the game.  I do this with selfish intent so as to enhance my online game experience in the OL community/world. I remember signing up to join the OL site as a EL player, many many moons ago when it was still a concept under development.  I know that things take time thats cool, im in no rush either.

When i saw the mini map i thought wow nice features, Zoom , Run/walk, NPC/player icons live updated. It added a different aspects to interacting with the ol game world.i dont play with out it displayed, Its these extra visual aides that enhance game play as well as the outstanding work done for new maps, PP distribution, PVE combat. etc.

Anyways back to the newb questions. So as i understand it the server sends client information and my computer puts it all together on my screen?

the server tells me X wants to trade with you. even can send message to ch 6 for pk kills. Why not something to say x is targeting but is out of range or even have icon pop up with thier picture card poping up respresenting them instead of a trade window for example. and improving game play interface for targeting and use of ofensive weapons and spells etc but not as annoying as the  achievement viewer thing i turned off.

is this something that might be possible if some one had the interest or just too many bad intentions on my part?

Reread what i typed.What im thinking if serverver sends creature and other info to me as a list of targetable things thats live updated like the colors/locations on mini maps. but via a seperate window

#12 Learner

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 04:16 AM

Only things in range can target you, plus you need to place some sort of limits on the amount of info given. If you can't know a mob is there yet, you can't know if it's targeted you. Also, even a mob you see walking towards you, you would know if it has you targeted or not ... maybe the one behind you is the one actually attacking?

In combat, information is lost in the heat of the moment and the confusion ... read up on "fog of war". Players shouldn't know everything or all the details of whats going on around them. You have to strike a balance, and thing of more then just what you would like to have ... or you'll ruin PK even worse then now. "Hey, that player behind you has you targeted", great for the target bad for the attacker.

#13 ohmygod

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Posted 30 May 2014 - 11:05 PM

View PostLearner, on 30 May 2014 - 04:16 AM, said:

Only things in range can target you, plus you need to place some sort of limits on the amount of info given. If you can't know a mob is there yet, you can't know if it's targeted you. Also, even a mob you see walking towards you, you would know if it has you targeted or not ... maybe the one behind you is the one actually attacking?
In combat, information is lost in the heat of the moment and the confusion ... read up on "fog of war". Players shouldn't know everything or all the details of whats going on around them. You have to strike a balance, and thing of more then just what you would like to have ... or you'll ruin PK even worse then now. "Hey, that player behind you has you targeted", great for the target bad for the attacker.

Fog of war, we have a lot of that in game already with the invaisions and login #il counter and no location details. but even this fog is gradually lifted as players share information about the location of the invaision mobs, and their loot drops.

The fog that i experience as a player, with the game interface, detracts from my game play by making me switch between screens , consolle , map, 3rd person views. clunky to gain information about the game world around me.

Im going to call the mini map a player Heads Up Display (HUD) I like the fact i can see limited view of the live action happening around me as i chat and harvest/mix/walk no matter what screen im in. An extention of this HUD experience with other ways to display/interact with current server information maybe even as sugested by another forum contributor (player?) as a start to the discussion.

I agree some balance required as to the information released but Fog of war not blindfold with a light saber and be expected/told? to use the force.. :)

#14 butler

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Posted 31 May 2014 - 04:38 AM

I think Learner is suggesting we shouldn't but tonnes of things to toggle with during combat, because when your swamped in mobs, you'll end up not using half of what's provided. However, what would be nice would be if we had some more tactics in combat. Currently we only have heal (BR/HEs/LES) and choosing which mob to att, on top of what armours. It would be nice if there could be an addition layer of strategy to give a greater feeling of depth. For example, in summoning, when it's redone, we could steal an idea from Jullian Gallops ZX Spectrum game, Chaos, and make it so that you can either summon a real creature (with a fair failrate) or summon the image of one, but doesn't have any of it's stats. Things like that could add some strategy.

#15 themuntdregger

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Posted 01 June 2014 - 12:20 PM

View Postbutler, on 31 May 2014 - 04:38 AM, said:

what would be nice would be if we had some more tactics in combat. Currently we only have heal (BR/HEs/LES) and choosing which mob to att, on top of what armours. It would be nice if there could be an addition layer of strategy to give a greater feeling of depth.

Yup, I very much agree. Something that might provide this might be 'stanzas' (the ability to configure/change how your char fights).  This could then be matched with animations to provide both greater depth and more look/feel.  The concept is used in games such as Ryzom.

#16 butler

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 10:23 AM

The basic premis of switching between lunges/slashes/etc. is used in runescape, which I think we should try and stay as far away from as possible :P What i think would be cool is if you could aim more at different parts of the body (say head, left forearm, right forearm, upper chest + shoulders, stomach, right ribs, left ribs, hips, left thigh, right thigh, something like that) and focusing on specific areas could have some advantage, say aim at one leg could cripple them so they can't run away as quickly, aiming for the hand with the weapon could possibly reduce their accuracy or power, stomach could increase chance of higher damage over time, the chest could have higher damage over a short time, the head could stun them, etc.) and could take advantage of where peoples/ beasts armours are weaker, or weakspots that could randomly occur in monsters. Make the chance of effects happening to people slightly random.

Would add some tactics to fighting, but keep it a bit random so it's less predictable. But probably less areas to aim for :P

#17 ohmygod

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Posted 02 June 2014 - 11:47 PM

combat is a different kettle of fish.

I was thinking addon (HUD) pops up when you die with location and a countdown timer on the clock for your death bag.

What would that take?

#18 butler

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 12:09 PM

I would prefer scarr's idea on this thread. Think it would be more interesting, a better mechanic for an RPG (surprising how many people forget what the R stands for) and provides the same basic help for recovering your deathbag. Would be a bit cooler and less dull than just marking where you died :P

Also isn't bag poofing time unreliable? I thought bag spamming around a bag decreases the amount of time it is likely to last, along with some other factors(?) Would that make a bag timer harder to implement?

#19 ohmygod

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:15 PM

getting off topic but how do you role play a death? in old school dice and paper D&D you stayed dead until someone resurected you or a god intervene (Dungeon Master got bored).

Computer game deaths have penalties for dying because on computer we have Other Llfe (lives) are immortal so to speak or the game would end very quick.

Dying in this game can be very costly and I would agree need some work, considering the cost in time to replace serps and meds etc.

#20 themuntdregger

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Posted 03 June 2014 - 04:53 PM

View Postohmygod, on 02 June 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

combat is a different kettle of fish.

I was thinking addon (HUD) pops up when you die with location and a countdown timer on the clock for your death bag.

What would that take?

Last year I coded an extended version of the OL Client which included the death location indicator, onboard text to speech converter, multiple hotkey configurations plus additional #commands.

Your idea of a clock for the death bag is excellent. I wish i'd thought of it at the time.




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